Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

I raise this too.

I don't have my SSH handy, but I could have sworn that Ed had an example where he advocates raising with A7s in a similar situation to clean up the A outs and advocates a call with a weaker flush draw that doesn't have overcards.

Edit: btw, the entire reason I came to the Magazine forum tonight was becuase when I read that article, I was shocked that a call was being advocated with the overcard and wanted to see if anyone else thought the same way [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

I think a case can be made for both lines. I don't mind the line for just calling here, I still like raising better.

In the SSHE example, p 158, if that's the one you're thinking of, it's a little different. You have a caller in between plus 2 overcards and a bigger pot. However, your raise is primarily to free up the Ace (as far as buying outs, which isn't the prime factor of that hand/raise given other, more beneficial factors also involved). You're not worried about your 9 outs as much as you will outkick most kickers unless they make 2 pair.

My contention is looking at the board on the hand. It's K high with only a flush draw. That flop didn't likely hit anyone unless they have a K or a flush draw, both which will call 2 flop bets. I don't see the pot really getting that much bigger given the board. You may also not gain much when you actually do hit your hand. Maybe. That can also be a case for calling the flop to see who might still be there to pay you off when you do hit. You're definitely not raising this turn if bet into if you get your flush.

However, another line I could see just calling the flop, see who comes along, then if you turn a gutshot draw, then raise the turn if bet into.

b

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

By calling on the flop, you're going to be raising the turn a lot.

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

[ QUOTE ]
By calling on the flop, you're going to be raising the turn a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree, butI wouldn't necesarily be raising the turn when I hit my flush on the turn.

b

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

Right. I meant that if you don't hit on the turn, you'll be raising.

heh.

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

I think that's a big mistake I see many, many players make.

b

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a case can be made for both lines. I don't mind the line for just calling here, I still like raising better.

In the SSHE example, p 158, if that's the one you're thinking of, it's a little different. You have a caller in between plus 2 overcards and a bigger pot. However, your raise is primarily to free up the Ace (as far as buying outs, which isn't the prime factor of that hand/raise given other, more beneficial factors also involved). You're not worried about your 9 outs as much as you will outkick most kickers unless they make 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to elaborate that the example in SSHE is VERY different. Firstly, the pot was raised preflop. Also, there are two limpers in between you and the raiser. Your raise is NOT primarily to clean up your lone overcard (putting 1SB in to buy 2 outs?). Your raise is for value, and because it may buy you a free river if the button folds and the turn is checked to you.

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

Elaborate or summarize what I said?

[ QUOTE ]
Your raise is NOT primarily to clean up your lone overcard (putting 1SB in to buy 2 outs?).

[/ QUOTE ]

I mentioned that.

[ QUOTE ]
your raise is primarily to free up the Ace (as far as buying outs, which isn't the prime factor of that hand/raise given other, more beneficial factors also involved).

[/ QUOTE ]

However, that section is also about buying outs. Yes, those 2 outs.

Another factor is that there is a player in between you and the flop bettor. The preflop raiser is one of the people you are targetting to get out of the hand with the raise in that example since it is likely he can have a bigger A.

If you double the pot size, it's very close to that example spot to be in.

b

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

My bad, I sorta skimmed the parenthesis after " your raise is primarily to free up the Ace". Anyway, I still think a flop call is correct in the example the author posted, although it's pretty insignifigant either way, as long as you don't fold [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Re: Selective aggression hand I don\'t agree with.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I still think a flop call is correct in the example the author posted, although it's pretty insignifigant either way, as long as you don't fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in the book example, it's even more significant to raise in that spot. Pot size alone dictates trying to maximize your winning chances over gaining value.

b