Re: When can\'t you fold pre-flop?
 

You have to be realistic about the situation.

Getting 7:1 preflop sounds great, but when you're out of position all the way potentially holding TPWK or middle pair, you have to look hard at the negative implied odds, particularly as they relatively apply to your stack.

I think most players take this too far. Just muck 7/2. It's OK; you're not gonna get paid if you flop to it anyway.

I also don't believe that some of what I've read here is what Harrington intended at all.

Re: When can\'t you fold pre-flop?
 

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Hand 1: 4980 is 13% of your stack. (Forget that you have put 4000 in the pot, that is not part of the decision process at this point)

Hand 2: 3000 is 11.6% of your stack.

And that is the problem. You are putting a lot of your chips in play with 96o and 85o, non-suited two-gappers. With that much going in, I think you need something more substantial, like AXs or suited connectors. I need to check some examples in HoH and see what the stack %'s are.

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basicly what I was going to say. I think DS stratagy of passing small edges for large % of your chips come into play here more. If the blinds were smaller with deep stacks or in the all in hand maybe if there was some chance your hand was good maybee. In my opinon these situations do not fit, fold both save your chips when you are going to win a higher % as opposed to a good price. I think

just noticed this was a super, in that case the plays were much worse than I thought easy folds. Hang around and you will wake up with a hand.

Re: When can\'t you fold pre-flop?
 

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First hand, you're in the SB with 72o. What do the pot odds need to be offering to auto-call? 9:1?

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assuming you're talking about a structure where the SB is 1/2 the BB, it never happens. you should never complete 72o unless you're in some weird situation where you think you're way better than the competition or something. if you have 8 limpers and it's to you with 72o, fold.

it's true that the more limpers there are, the bigger the pot is. but it also becomes more likely that you flop two pair and lose your stack to a set, or flop trips and lose to a boat or trips/higher kicker. if the competition is not dumb, if everyone limps and they flop top pair, they're not going to the felt with it.

just dump it. the pot odds are not particularly important. what's important is that you're going to have to play a horrible hand in the worst position.

if the SB is 2/3 the BB (like party level 1), then completing any two (regardless of the number of limpers) might be correct. there's a thread about it in the STT forum.

Re: When can\'t you fold pre-flop?
 

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I don't play based off of odds, but only because my post-flop skill hasn't been developed. when you play say, Q4o from SB and the flop is a Q high board, how do you play that? For me, I want to work on my reads and be in a few more situations before i'm comfortable auto-calling from SB when I have the odds. That's just me though

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As for me, I check to see what everyone else thinks about the Q hi board. I'm assuming it's a weak passive table if everyone limped, but if someone bets their Qs I fold with my weak kicker. If it checks around and a lower card hits the turn, I bet it.

I used to do the calling in SB vs limpers, but saw that was a hole in my game. I now fold unless I get quality starters. Calling with crap is foolish IMO no matter what the odds.

Re: When can\'t you fold pre-flop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to be realistic about the situation.

Getting 7:1 preflop sounds great, but when you're out of position all the way potentially holding TPWK or middle pair, you have to look hard at the negative implied odds, particularly as they relatively apply to your stack.

I think most players take this too far. Just muck 7/2. It's OK; you're not gonna get paid if you flop to it anyway.

I also don't believe that some of what I've read here is what Harrington intended at all.

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Exactly. Can't put it any better.