Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

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Ignoring the result though, who do you think played that hand well? Both of us, one, or neither?

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To me this is a tough play to criticize either way. If the pot size is about 8k or so (assuming antes) he has about 8x the size of the pot.

Sklansky has a good discussion of this when he suggests the best time to move in with AK is when moving in would be betting 2-5 times the size of the pot (part of the problem is if you push with too much more you risk too much for too little).

He also mentions the difficulty of playing with about 7x the pot size that there is little point in raising if you are not pushing bc you can't fold to a reraise.

The better play might well be a smooth call but that really depends on how the opponent had been playing imo. Paul was one of the chip leaders and I assume he had been pretty aggressive, AK is a hell of a lot better than most hands he probably raises with from late position so it is hard to criticize the push here.

Calling with JJ is a good play if you know your opponent has AK imo. That is a pretty huge edge to pass up especially with the chips in the pot. Of course it depends on (i) payout structure and (ii) how well your bankroll can take swings (in other words how key is cashing to you in this one tourney) but the default is it is an autocall.

You could say depending on circumstances each played it correctly and it was just one of those things that happens in tourneys.

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

As far as your stories go, I have a mild distaste for your call. If that situation arises early in a tourney then I say call, but at this point even if theoretically you should (and if he flipped over his cards I have no idea if it is) I know I couldn't. On the otherhand, man do I hate his play, its asking to only get called by the hands he doesnt want to play with (AA, KK obviously and also QQ and apparently JJ) but never a hand he is dominating. Anyway, I guess my question would be, if you were that sure, would you have called with 88, or 22?

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

your telling me if the SB repops it to 12 he's pot comitting himself, I have a hard time agreeing with that.

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

Harrington.

Did he even hand a legit hand the last 2 days?

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

With a raise to 12k you only need about a 39% or so ev to call so you are only priced out against AA or KK and you hold an A and a K. If opponent is aggressive and he senses weakness he might well move in with any two so it would be hard to put him on those two hands with enough certainty to make a laydown.

I guess my point is either smooth call or move in at those stack sizes against an aggressive opponent.

I respect your opinion a lot MLG what do you think?

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

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Of course it depends on (i) payout structure and (ii) how well your bankroll can take swings (in other words how key is cashing to you in this one tourney) but the default is it is an autocall.

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I suggest that people for whom (ii) is a factor are giving up fistfuls of equity.

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

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Flop a K, river a J. I felt bad because the guy started lightly celebrating before the river rolled off, which always makes the blow more crushing. I ending up winning that tournament. Ignoring the result though, who do you think played that hand well? Both of us, one, or neither? I don't think murphy's play with AK is necessarily good (or bad) and I don't think dean's call with JJ is necessarily bad (or good).

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I think you made a good play because you made a correct read and put yourself in a position where you were favorite to win. Chris made a questionable play. He has little folding equity since you're a professional capable of making good reads and calling with a slight edge, and your position raise in LP isn't a true litmus as to what hand you have.

My general criticism of Murphy and Dean lies in the fact they both had approximately 2.5 million or so, stacks that were healthy enough to play smart with and make a run for the title, let alone the final table.

Here's the scenario I pose to you, Paul:

This is purely hypothetical. Let's say you're in Matt Dean's position. Chip stacks are hypothetical since I don't know the accurate numbers, but there are 13 players left and both you and Murphy have large stacks. He moves in, and you suspect he has AK. You firmly believe you're a 57% favorite. If you call, you have a 57% chance of being the 2nd largest chip stack. You also have a 43% chance of being busted out of the tournament.

Here is the kicker: You've been gradually acquiring chips and picking up pots and chipping away much the same way Greg Raymer has, so should trends continue you could potentially get many chips over a longer period of time by continuing your playing style and not having to risk this much on a 57% edge. Does this change your thought process?

Should you fold with a 57% edge for all your chips when you have a huge stack and have been consistently accumulating chips with less risk?

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

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I suggest that people for whom (ii) is a factor are giving up fistfuls of equity.

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Paul,

Of course they are almost by definition (hard to say for sure if there were a weird payout structure).

I mean if your opponent flipped over AK and you folded JJ with dead money in a pot with typical top heavy payments you must know you are giving up a fistful of equity.

That being said, as an example, the reality is if I won a satellite for a big event I would be willing to give up some ev to make a decent score. That is just a fact in an imperfect world.

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

I think you have to deal with a reraise if it comes, and then try to make the right decision even if that means calling (not the ideal situation because you are losing folding equity obviously). Keep the circumstances in mind though, these are the two biggest stacks in the tourney. If the button (in this case Paul, but im generalizing) is hyper aggro enough to move his stack in against the only stack that can damage him just because he senses weakness, then by reraising and calling you will be getting all the money in with the best of it a lot.

Generally speaking I don't think, "If I get rereraised I will want to throw-up" is a good reason not to reraise. Deal with that situation when it arises.

Re: Who was the worst player at the WSOP final table
 

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I think you have to deal with a reraise if it comes, and then try to make the right decision even if that means calling (not the ideal situation because you are losing folding equity obviously). Keep the circumstances in mind though, these are the two biggest stacks in the tourney. If the button (in this case Paul, but im generalizing) is hyper aggro enough to move his stack in against the only stack that can damage him just because he senses weakness, then by reraising and calling you will be getting all the money in with the best of it a lot.

Generally speaking I don't think, "If I get rereraised I will want to throw-up" is a good reason not to reraise. Deal with that situation when it arises.

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I am just debating you not fighting so don't challenge me to any scrabble game (I suck) but I think you need to think of the likelihood of the push before you make your decision as it will affect your decision. As an example in this exact hand, if you knew your opponent would fold 22-99 but reraise all in with TT-QQ wouldn't a push on your end be much better? Either way if he has AA or KK your money is going all in.

Of course the benefit on your end would be his raising with AQ AJ etc. but I thought you were folding to the reraise?

Still mulling this one over-I am still confused why we are talking poker on a poker forum.