Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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And if you had kept the pot smaller by just calling preflop, you would have had an easy fold on the flop after whiffing.

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omg

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

If he was betting a draw up until now, it just came in.

EDIT: I like the line, just not this spot.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

I think you raise the turn to clean up your outs. Plus you have a big draw here and it makes the river play much easier b/c you have force the BB to define his hand on the turn. Also, in this situation, you want to eliminate the SB player who is coming along.

As you played the turn, I don't know if I could make that raise on the end. It would be a much easier raise to make if the pot was heads up. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning on the river play. Were you raising b/c you thought you had best hand or did you think you had 2nd best hand and were trying to fold the SB who you felt had you beat?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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I think you raise the turn to clean up your outs. Plus you have a big draw here and it makes the river play much easier b/c you have force the BB to define his hand on the turn. Also, in this situation, you want to eliminate the SB player who is coming along.


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Exactly which outs will a turn raise clean up? I'm not sure how raising here will make the BB define his hand or what that will even accomplish for you if you do. I'd rather pay 1 bet to see the river with my big draw instead of 2 or 3.

To Jasont: I also don't like the river raise for reasons already started.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

I don't like the river raise either.

The turn raise is important b/c it helps define the SB and the BB's hand. It also gives us a chance to isolate the chronic bluffer BB. As far as the outs it clears up are potentially our over cards here. All of our other outs are to the virtual nuts, we don't need to clear them up. However, if jason put the BB on air on the flop and chose to smooth call, and then the SB came along as well, in order to win the pot from the BB who I guess he is still putting on air, then a raise is important on the turn.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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And if you had kept the pot smaller by just calling preflop, you would have had an easy fold on the flop after whiffing.

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This is an easy, easy raise preflop. Isn't the strategy you're talking about for NL play?

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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Isn't the strategy you're talking about for NL play?


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i think the strategy hes talking about is for KJo play.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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The turn raise is important b/c it helps define the SB and the BB's hand

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What does this mean??? If you raise and they both call or one calls how have you defined their hand at all? And if it has, how does that help you??

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It also gives us a chance to isolate the chronic bluffer BB

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I'm not sure where you're getting "chronic bluffer". He's an aggressive player, but every pair is ahead of us as is almost every flop draw.

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As far as the outs it clears up are potentially our over cards here

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Again, what outs specifically does it clear up? There aren't many hands either player can have here that both: have an out that we can clean up and will fold it.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

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The turn raise is important b/c it helps define the SB and the BB's hand

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What does this mean??? If you raise and they both call or one calls how have you defined their hand at all? And if it has, how does that help you??


By raising you make the SB define his hand. If he can call 2 cold then you know that you need to hit one our draws. If the BB just calls after the SB folds then we have the chance to spike a potential pair for the win. It seems to me that a raise does not lose much as far as equity is concerned b/c both of our draws are good... so we have a large amount of equity there so if a raise can gain us additional equity then it can't be all bad.
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It also gives us a chance to isolate the chronic bluffer BB

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I'm not sure where you're getting "chronic bluffer". He's an aggressive player, but every pair is ahead of us as is almost every flop draw.

And so is A-high, however, the OP called on the flop with no pair-no draw against this player. The fact that he could be bluffing here must of been part of the variable that he factored in to justify a call on the flop. Him being a "chronic bluffer" was an inference that I gathered from the OP. Seems to be only way we could justify a call on the flop, unless we are just purely gambling?

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As far as the outs it clears up are potentially our over cards here

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Again, what outs specifically does it clear up? There aren't many hands either player can have here that both: have an out that we can clean up and will fold it.

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What if the SB is tagging along with a hand that contains a J or a K in it, which would make them 2 pair... like TJ or KT or J8... some sort of holding like that... folding the SB here would potentially make our one pair hand good if we make it.

Im not saying that all of this is a great play or not, but we got ourselves stuck in this predicament by making a questionable call on the flop. Then our equity greatly increases on the turn, we should make every effort to win a pot that is increasing in size.

Re: 10/20 KJs
 

The preflop raise is neither terrible nor mandatory in middle position, IMO.