Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

well....even EV is better than -EV.
Some people like to play Craps...and if you can play it without the negative expecatation then you are at least not hurting yourself.

the comps that one gets for playing have value also.
Usually the comps that are given out are not much compared to the advantage the casino has over you for the amount of play required.

Obviously if you are somehow playing a coin-toss-ish EV game then this isn't the case.

Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

I've probably put it at least 200 hours at craps tables. I've rarely noticed errors. And the ones I've noticed have almost never been in my favor. I've played in a number of casinos in Tahoe, Reno and Vegas.

There are 3 people taking bets and a floor manager in the middle of a typical table. Bets are systematically placed on the available felt to indicate the player that originally made the wager. You can't have a place bet (getting just under true odds) and a bet from a come line bet on the same number to eliminate confusion. Numbers (and status of the roll, whether it's a come out roll or what the point is) are called out during the action and there are many eyes watching the table.

The only time I've gotten a mistake in my favor was when I made a pass line bet right after someone hit their point and the dealer thought I'd made the pass line bet for the come out roll.

It takes a little while to learn to follow the action in craps, but once you do, it's extremely simple.

While in blackjack there seems to be a stronger emphasis on the action, in craps, there seems to be a focus to get all the bets straight after every toss. At a table with a strong shooter, there can be so many chips on the table that the dealers get annoyed with every toss because the dice hit some bet. When there is this much action, the time between tosses can be significantly longer than with limited wagers.

While theoretically it's possible with 100X odds (which no one gives, you're way lucky to find 5X odds) and dealer errors to make craps profitable, based on my own experience, I consider it highly unlikely. I actually have that much faith in the competence of most craps dealers unless you actively attempt to disrupt how they run the game. Maybe Mason is counting on math or counting errors with such big odds?

Just one man's opinion.

Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

Your experience is interesting.
As i said, I don't know anything about Craps really so I'll take your word for it as you obviously know the game.


The casino I worked at was a break-in place where they put you through the dealing class and then hire you for cheap (everyone wants to put their 6-18 months there so they can get a gig at a higher-paying casino).


After you take the class for BJ and carnival games (Carib-Stud, Let-it-Ride, etc) then you can take an optional class to learn craps.

So a lot of the craps dealers are brand-freaking-new...and on top of that, the casino features $0.25 craps.

So they're stuck trying to calculate 9-to-1 or 11-to-1 on a $0.75 bet or $1.25 on the fly (and would complain about how tough it all was in the break-room).

I suspect there were more mistakes at our place then at most casinos!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But, from what I can see, with that many people watching the game I would not be surprised that the team-effort would reduce the error potential significantly compared with blackjack.


FWIW - I don't think Mason was thinking in terms of distracting the dealers to the point of error. I think he really WAS referring to just playing the game honestly...and if they make an error in your favor then 'sucks to be them'.


I wonder if making odd-amount bets might increase this likelihood in Craps (a $13 bet where most players would normally be betting $10).
This is something that can be kind of effective in blackjack.
Because figuring 3:2 on a blackjack when you've bet $37 can confuse some dealers.

they will also make mistakes when they are 'coloring-up' your chips on a win...like if I bet $40 (1 green and 3 red) and win...they owe me $80 so they take 2 of the red of the top (and tap it) and leave me with 3 green and 1 red.

but many dealers will FREQUENTLY screw this up.

and if it's a blackjack on a $162 bet (or a double-for-less or whatever) they can get pretty damn confused pretty fast.

Hell, when I was dealing these types of pay-outs would even screw with my head a little bit sometimes.

Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

Your experience is interesting too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've only played at 5 or 10 minimum bet craps. All the dealers I've come across had the payouts memorized for the minimum bet (and the minimum for hard way and yo-11 bets for 1 dollar).

I haven't seen many dealers screw up the coloring up (that wasn't caught), but I would defer to your experience on that one as you've clocked more hours and probably watched the color ups more carefully than I did. I have watched color ups and they all seemed to go properly. Most of the dealers I've seen also could tell the number of chips by height, but still double-checked them.

I agree with you about what Mason was saying. I would still consider selectively correcting the dealers to be unethical, but it's unethical to about the lowest degree I can imagine. It seems to me that Mason is speaking in theoretical terms anyway and certainly not advocating that sort of behavior.

I think I might have to watch some more craps to decide whether I agree with Mason given what you've said.

And your casino does sound a little more likely to have mistakes than other ones. :P

Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

[ QUOTE ]
While theoretically it's possible with 100X odds (which no one gives, you're way lucky to find 5X odds)

[/ QUOTE ]

When GFL was written, there had been a craps war going on in Las Vegas and at least three casinos (at that time) were offering 100 times odds.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

I've played craps infrequently, and I've seen two kinds of errors more than I expected: (1) dealers take your place bets and forget to place them (not good); and (2) dealers forget to remove losing come bets when there's a 7 on the come out roll (very good). I've seen mistake (2) enough to believe that making come bets is probably close to 0 EV.

Re: Question from Gambling Theory & Other Topics
 

Oh, I believe it. While I wasn't clear about it in my post, I did strongly consider the possibility that the 100X odds wasn't simply theoretical even though I know it's uncommon now. While you do talk theory, you usually seem practical enough to keep it in the realm of the possible.

Sounds like fun times.