Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

And if an observant player notices you minraise against flush draws, they will be willing to stay in with far weaker draws so that they can crack your inveitable pot size bet on the river.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
joewatch said in another thread that there is no place for the min-raise in PLO. I disagree, I think that PLO is one of the few poker games where there is a place for the min-raise.

Right after I read that this hand came up. What do people think of the min raise here?

100 PLO, $1-$1 blinds

Stacks: Villain in SB $117, Me in BB $131, Limper $164, preflop aggressor $180.

Villain SB is often very aggressive on the turn with semi-bluffs.

Hero is BB with As Jh 4s Kh

1 limper, tricky aggressive player in CO raises to $5, SB villain calls, I call, limper calls.

Flop (Pot = $20) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villain checks, I check, limper checks, preflop raiser checks

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain bets $11, I min raise to $22, everyone folds, villain calls

River (pot = $62) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain checks, I pot it, he folds.

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Why do you bet the river? If you are beaten he will probably call. If he had a draw, which is more likely, he will fold.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well-written post but doesn't answer my question really. Doesn't a bigger raise get you the same information with more fold equity when your behind and more value when your ahead?

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Its a good question.

A 3/4 or 1/2 pot bet gets me the same info, but at a higher price. If I am behind and he comes back over the top, I'll have to muck. And there's really no additional fold equity at that price. A PSB will have fold equity against a flush draw, but the price of that information is too high for me here with this hand in a 4 way.

If I am ahead, sure I may get a little more value, but by increasing the pot I have increased the leverage he will have if he decides to bluff the river. Do I really want to face an 80-100BB bet on the river with TPTK? But I am fine snapping off a smaller bluff with this.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

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If a club had fallen on the river, you would have been very sad that you minraised.

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Why? Cause I have such a monster hand??? I can get out cheaply, and the decision on the river will be easy.

I wouldn't be nearly as sad as if I jack it up to $84 on the turn and he sets me on any river.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

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The problem in learning poker lies in the fact that you are frequently rewarded by winning the pot in hands you misplay.

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The problem with 2+2 is this kind of aloof didactic rudeness attached to no specific information.

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You price in a lot of hands here that would not call a bigger bet, as well as minimize your value against hands that would've called a bigger bet anyway.

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Of course those are the drawbacks. You failed to address the advantages, namely that I haven't committed a lot of chips to learn exactly where I stand, and through pot control I have maintained the right to make the more forceful river bluff.


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You misplayed the flop and river as well. You suffer from a sever case of FPS.

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Please explain how. Though I actually agree with you on the river, I think its good form to actually state your case once in a while. Maybe other 2+2ers could learn from you if you did.

You seem to suffer from a sever[sic] case of 2+2 arrogance. I have made perhaps a dozen min-raises in my last 10,000 hands. Thats hardly FPS.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
And if an observant player notices you minraise against flush draws, they will be willing to stay in with far weaker draws so that they can crack your inveitable pot size bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is a rare case in this hand, so an observant player will have to play ALOT of hands to detect this. Obviously you want to charge the draw here; the issue is you have to balance that against charging right into the nuts when you don't know if your marginal hand is any good.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you bet the river? If you are beaten he will probably call. If he had a draw, which is more likely, he will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good question. I thought about checking or betting smaller, but I was afraid he might call with a better two pair. The drawback is that he's not paying off with anything that I beat.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

The potsize bet on the river seems to be the "oh [censored]" bet after the turn bet. I min-bet bluffed and he didnt fold so I am going to shove into this pot. I usually assume that min bets are bluffs at low limit, and it seems to have worked out for me so far. People not wanting to commit lots of chips in PLO and charge out draws are usually too afraid or ignorant to make a normal bet on a bluff.

Like using "Fire" in rock paper scissors, you should be only able to use this move once in your life. Now feel happy it worked, and dont try it again.

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

I've been gone so long Im just the "british guy" now?

Shame on u [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I like small bets but hate miniraises, for all the reasons already stated.

Now Im playing NLHE, Im getting minirasies all the time and its driving me craaazy.

gl

dd

Re: Using a min-raise in PLO
 

I figured the inflamatory disregard for your screen name might entice you to post! IT WORKED. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Yeah I'm playing a lot of NLHE as well. Dealing with min-raises is a kind of speciality in that game. I think people min raise often because they are simply to lazy to enter an amount and don't want to push all-in.