Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

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in MULTI WAY pots you would rather have a good drawing hand than a made hand that stands little room to improve such as AA or KK and through a little 4th grade deductive reasoning you can conclude that AKs plays a lot better in multi way pots than AA-TT.

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Where do people get these nonsense information. If you're going all-in with 3 other players in the hand, you would want AKs instead of AA? Maybe you have some kind of bias against AA because your aces get cracked so many times by some stupid fish who doesn't know when to fold, but AA is the mother of all hands. It doesn't matter if you're all-in against one other person or a hundred. AA is always the best hand to have. (There are some rare exceptions. For example, if your opponent has KQ, your KK would have a slightly higher chance of winning than AA. But since there's no way to tell what your opponent has before you make your decision, there's no reason to want any other hand over AA)

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AKs plays well with any number of players: with big multiway pots you can flop a flush draw and have a huge +EV situation

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Actually, many people do not make +EV decisions with their flush draws. People tend to overvalue their flush draws thinking that they can call pot-sized bets because their implied odds will make up for their lack of pot odds. Yes, you can get paid off big time with your flush draws, but only against the right kind of opponents in the right position at the right time. Especially in tournaments where everyone is shortstacked, flush draws do not have that much value, in my opinion. To think that you can get a huge +EV situation everytime you get a flush draw (and I'm not saying that you think that way) is bad poker.

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To clarify even more, when I refer to it playing well multiway I'm not talking about how often it wins at showdown in a multiway race situation, I'm referring to implied odds concepts.

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In PartyPoker SNGs where everyone starts off with 50xBB and blinds escalate very fast, your implied odds are shot to hell.

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Also, I didn't invent this statement myself, it comes from Sklansky.

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Yes, Sklansky talked about implied odds, but he played ring games with 200xBB stacks, not PartyPoker SNGs with 50xBB stacks.

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

I just muck this and find a better spot. I hate pushing with AK early when I know I'm gonna get called, I only think it is +EV if you are going to get the pot without a showdown.

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

At lower limits I think you are going to maximize your win-rate by folding here and picking spots later.

However I think this is at least a 55 so I don't necessarilly know.

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

I don't have a bias against AA for any reason - i understand that it is the ultimate best grand daddy play with my balls hand (whatever). In answer to your awfully hateful post though, 3 handed yes i would rather have AA - 5, 6, or 7 handed though - it's not going to hold up near as often though b/c you virtually are tied to trying to win with 1 pair and while i don't know the EXACT percentage (forgive me oh great one) one pair rarely holds up in pots that have 4+ players in them. Compare that to the numerous hands you can make with AKs and i think the point is made. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

AA fares better in an allin than AK regardless of the number of players except in VERY specific matchups.

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

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I don't have a bias against AA for any reason - i understand that it is the ultimate best grand daddy play with my balls hand (whatever). In answer to your awfully hateful post though, 3 handed yes i would rather have AA - 5, 6, or 7 handed though - it's not going to hold up near as often though b/c you virtually are tied to trying to win with 1 pair and while i don't know the EXACT percentage (forgive me oh great one) one pair rarely holds up in pots that have 4+ players in them. Compare that to the numerous hands you can make with AKs and i think the point is made. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Your point isn't even close to being made:

AA against 5 opponents.

1 with any two broadway
1 with any two broadway
1 with any two broadway
1 with any pair
1 with any pair

AA: 44%
9%
9%
9%
14.5%
14.5%

AKs against same opponents:

AKs - 20%
12%
12%
12%
20%
20%

Your point sucks.

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

I agree. Does my point suck? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

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I agree. Does my point suck? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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No, I'm quite fond of your point. =)

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

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3 handed yes i would rather have AA - 5, 6, or 7 handed though - it's not going to hold up near as often though b/c you virtually are tied to trying to win with 1 pair

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Duh. That's why you dont try to back your stack with unimproved AA with 7 other people seeing the flop. (Unless you're playing with 7 donks, then maybe) That's common sense. There's no rule that says you have to see the showdown everytime you get dealt AA. However, if you're saying that if there's 7 people ALL-IN preflop, you have a better chance of winning with AKs than AA, then you are very very wrong. If there are TEN PEOPLE all-in, and you have AA, you have about 30% chance of winning the hand, and if you have AKs, you have about 20% chance of winning the hand.

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while i don't know the EXACT percentage (forgive me oh great one) one pair rarely holds up in pots that have 4+ players in them. Compare that to the numerous hands you can make with AKs and i think the point is made.

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Ok, I'm going to have pull out some statistics (from the website http://www.pokerupdate.com/pokerodds.htm) for this because you seem to think that AKs has so much more potential of improving than AA. Ok here goes...
For AA, your chances of flopping...
a set - 10.8%
a fullhouse - 0.74%
quads - 0.25%
So the total chance of improvement is 11.79%. And remember when AA improves, it improves to a top-notch hand, and even if it does not improve, it's still better than TPTK.

For AKs, your chances of flopping...
two pair using both your hole cards - 2%
trips - 1.35%
a full house - 0.09%
quads - 0.01%
a flush - 0.84%
a straight - 1.3%
So the total chance of AKs improving to a hand better than TPTK is 5.59%, and some of these hands are so obvious to your opponents that they can make the correct decision against you. (For example, you raise pre-flop with AKs and the flop comes AAK. You think you'll get a lot of action here?)

Well, you can also say that AKs can flop a flush draw 10.9% of the time, and the draw will improve to a flush by river 35% of the times. Ok, but AA can flop a set 10.8% of the time, and the set will improve to a boat by river 33% of the time. In conclusion, you can see that AA has a greater potential to improve than AKs does. Also remember, AKs only flops TPTK 29% of the time, and the rest of the time when it doesn't flop a good draw or TPTK or better? (which happens on almost half the flops you see) Just a crappy ace high in a multiway pot.

Whoo... that took a while. Now to take a break. I apologize if my post sounded hateful because I did not mean it to sound that way at all. Just trying to start some discussion to get you thinking. (and get myself thinking as well)

Re: AK driving me crazy, today!
 

fine, conceded --- [censored] me sideways. I think i was dreaming when that argument went through my head. <Quietly tucks tail b/w legs and whimpers home> Thank you sir may i have another [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]