Re: hmmmmmm
 

i don't understand your line. c/r the flop, see what happens next.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

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Why are we so sure he'll pay off with an underpair or AK here for more than one street?

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I see it happen a ton. AK probably isn't calling the river UI but it could. Underpairs call this down a ton on a paired board with one high card. This kind of flop get's bluffed a lot at 3/6.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

Dyson...

Versus your hand range, wouldn't it be better to smooth call and check raise the turn?

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dyson...

Versus your hand range, wouldn't it be better to smooth call and check raise the turn?

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but i can then find folds... that's the point.

when you check raise the flop he can put you on underpairs and flush draws. you also never give him the chance to turn a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and take the free card when you check, which i feel is really important.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

But he's not calling down. C/R flop. Bet/raise turn. If he calls turn, bet river. If he raises turn, check/call.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
But he's not calling down. C/R flop. Bet/raise turn. If he calls turn, bet river. If he raises turn, check/call.

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if you go back to my earlier posts in this thread (i responded to it first actually), you will notice i suggested check raising the flop, so maybe you're not responding to me??

anyway if you're suggesting bet/3-betting the turn when you say "bet/raise turn," that's typically going overboard.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dyson...

Versus your hand range, wouldn't it be better to smooth call and check raise the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
but i can then find folds... that's the point.

when you check raise the flop he can put you on underpairs and flush draws. you also never give him the chance to turn a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and take the free card when you check, which i feel is really important.

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This is spot on. Let villain call down with his inferior hands and pay us off, and limit our exposure if he's got a monster on us.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

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anyway if you're suggesting bet/3-betting the turn when you say "bet/raise turn," that's typically going overboard.

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I would seriously consider 3-betting this turn. The only realistic hands you're behind are the big pairs AA, KK, and QQ, but a lot of hands raise your fishy looking bet. And since 2 of the Qs and 1 of the Ks is accounted for, QQ and KK are even less likely.

In fact, I'm not sure why you would bet out unless you wanted to 3-bet it. I don't expect this turn to get checked through often.

I think check/calling flop check/raising turn is a perfectly reasonable line here. Against a total unknown, I think bet/calling the turn is too timid and bet/3-betting is maybe a little bit too much action, but certainly not overboard.

/mc

Re: hmmmmmm
 

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Against a total unknown, I think bet/calling the turn is too timid and bet/3-betting is maybe a little bit too much action, but certainly not overboard.

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okay maybe "overboard" was too strong a word, because you're right that our play up to that point looks pretty retarded and we could get raised by JJ/TT/AK there often enough.

Re: hmmmmmm
 

Yeah, I think you're likely to get raised by any pair and a lot of Aces.

/mc