Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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If he has the A, he ain't folding, so we're putting in extra bets with the worst hand.


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If we're not folding then the turn raise seems fine to me. As with the earlier fsd thread, knowing your players is of the utmost importance. But if this guy is incapable of 3 betting this turn with less than a flush, then the raise is fine I think.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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If we're not folding then the turn raise seems fine to me. As with the earlier fsd thread, knowing your players is of the utmost importance. But if this guy is incapable of 3 betting this turn with less than a flush, then the raise is fine I think.


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Why? I seriously doubt that we have villain beat after his turn bet greater than 50% of the time.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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If he has the A, he ain't folding, so we're putting in extra bets with the worst hand.


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If we're not folding then the turn raise seems fine to me. As with the earlier fsd thread, knowing your players is of the utmost importance. But if this guy is incapable of 3 betting this turn with less than a flush, then the raise is fine I think.

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Why? What hands is villain likely to have? We need to fold a better hand (not likely) or have a better hand a decent portion of the time. The crux is how often are we better? And when we are, how often does he have a hand that is drawing slim that might just fold, but could bet the river or check/call it?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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How is the raise on the turn a "free" showdown? You still pay 2 BB's and risk getting reraised on the Turn and no showdown.

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Villain calls turn, checks river. If he makes a K/flush he can bet river gaining an extra bet than if he had just called on the turn and got checked to on the river.

I don't like it because the times he 3-bets you however that was the logic behind it. The way he played it however I don't think he gets 3-bet that often and has a large amount of fold equity (@OP this doesn't work that much at 1/2 party however).

I think calling down sucks in comparison to raise / folding unless you have a specific aggro read on opponent (3-bets with FD on flop) If you call down he has to bet to river all the time without an A and he has to bet the flop >50% without an A.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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I think the turn raise is really bad. I might raise for a free showdown if I think that I might make someone fold a better hand or if I know that villain has the best of the outs. In this case I think neither is true.

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Thinking about it now, I doubt an opponent with these stats would have folded an A in this spot (although she may call with a weaker flush draw, which would be great). I just figured I was seeing the showdown anyway and managed to pick up a fairly strong draw on the turn.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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I just figured I was seeing the showdown anyway and managed to pick up a fairly strong draw on the turn.

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The strong draw you pick up makes calling on the turn even more profitable. Most of the time, it allows you to put in that second bet on the river when you make your hand rather than putting it in on the turn when you haven't.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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The strong draw you pick up makes calling on the turn even more profitable. Most of the time, it allows you to put in that second bet on the river when you make your hand rather than putting it in on the turn when you haven't.

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Doesn't this suggest that you will fold your unimproved hand on the river?

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

This is a straightforward call down if I ever saw one. Raising anywhere sucks except if you hit your flush on the river.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

Ahh, you're right, my bad. I don't think the fsd move is done for fold equity so much as it is the possibility that hero is ahead with outs if not ahead. I don't think hero is ever ahead here making this a bad spot to raise the turn. My bad.

Re: KK - free showdown with A on board?
 

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Doesn't this suggest that you will fold your unimproved hand on the river?

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It depends on the read. Not usually, though, because of the fact that the pot is big and that we haven't raised on any of the streets to allow villain to define his hand.

I don't even think it matters on the turn whether we are ahead or behind. I think it's more +EV to just call there anyway, as if we are ahead, it's pretty doubtful that villain will catch us or call the river raise.