Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Actually I believe GTBOI is right on the money and SSH is wrong.

Just for clarification about the contexts; SSH advocates raising with AJo in any position in a loose game. Pages 82-83.

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You've oversimplified the charts. SSHE advocates raising IF there has been no raise. Look more closely at the charts.

In fact, if you refer to page 73 for clarification, you'll see that the recommendation is to be prepared to fold AJ to ANY raise, because the hand is vulnerable to domination.

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I didn't say reraise, I just said raise. Of course you would fold it due to a raise.

What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Actually I believe GTBOI is right on the money and SSH is wrong.

Just for clarification about the contexts; SSH advocates raising with AJo in any position in a loose game. Pages 82-83.

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You've oversimplified the charts. SSHE advocates raising IF there has been no raise. Look more closely at the charts.

In fact, if you refer to page 73 for clarification, you'll see that the recommendation is to be prepared to fold AJ to ANY raise, because the hand is vulnerable to domination.

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I did take another look at the charts. It also says to do it with KQo in late position. Ugh

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

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If you raise AJ, and get reraised, you can fold and get away from the hand with minimal loss. If you raise and get called, you have extra bets in the pot if you do spike your ace so that it becomes more likely mathematically correct to continue playing the hand.

On the other hand, say you play AJ your way. Not only do you let inferior hands which may draw out on you see the flop cheaply, you've made yourself vulnerable to domination or reverse domination by another hand with an ace.

What are you going to do when you get reraised by the player that bet into you after the flop? AJ is a marginal hand, no question. SSHE is just showing how to play it to maximize the gains and minimize the losses.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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I did take another look at the charts. It also says to do it with KQo in late position. Ugh

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There's been plenty of discussion on how SSHE recommends playing a lot of hands that other books don't. If you do a search, you'll find enlightenment.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

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If you raise AJ, and get reraised, you can fold and get away from the hand with minimal loss.

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Not trying to be rude, but I stopped reading your reply at this. I don't see how its ever correct to fold to a single reraise preflop. I'm sure SSH does not advocate this.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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I did take another look at the charts. It also says to do it with KQo in late position. Ugh

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There's been plenty of discussion on how SSHE recommends playing a lot of hands that other books don't. If you do a search, you'll find enlightenment.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Bud, thanks for the debate. I keep an open mind, and I like novel ideas. But I also don't like to believe in things on faith along. I think raising AJo and KQo on the button with 6-8 limpers is wrong. My rationale is above.

But I would like to get some comments, about the seemingly blatant contradiction here. In GTBOI, AJo in a good loose game is "garbage". In SSH its a raising hand. Big difference to me.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hi Pipes:

This debate has come up many times before.

Games that are loose but your opponents are still playing well from the flop on are different from games in which some of your opponents play virtually anything and then play poorly from the flop on.

This is from page 159and 160 of HPFAP where this is addressed:

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There is a bit of a two-edged sword here. If you’re playing against extremely terrible opponents, it’s hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you’re costing yourself money on the later streets, your’re gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players.

But if these players are just playing a little looser than what they normally should, and then they play meekly and badly, a reason not to raise with many of these hands is that when you make the pot larger, you are now making some of your opponents play correctly. This is in addition to the fact that some of these hands, such as the AQ just mentioned, don’t play well in multiway pots.


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This explains the differences between the two books.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

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If you raise AJ, and get reraised, you can fold and get away from the hand with minimal loss.

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Not trying to be rude, but I stopped reading your reply at this. I don't see how its ever correct to fold to a single reraise preflop. I'm sure SSH does not advocate this.

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Uh, no offense taken. I was unclear in how I described this... I didn't mean that you should fold for a single reraise prelop. I was talking about when you get reraised preflop, then you spike your ace and get bet into postflop, you raise, then you get reraised.

If you look at the third paragraph of my reply, you'll see what I intended to say.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

It assumes a lack of intellect on the part of the reader (unless he happens to agree with the OP). You're not offended? Okay. How about if he wrote, "Gusly, your sister is unattractive. Do you see why?" It's all in the context, I suppose.

If he had simply said, "Can someone explain the seeming contradiction..." rather than just branding one or the other wrong perhaps he would have started a Socratic discussion.

Also, Socrates would have always raised AJo first-in in a loose game. Sorry to have pushed your buttons.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

[/ QUOTE ] Uh...I believe that line is an homage to Sklansky, who finishes many of his posts with that line, or one similar.