Re: Folding AK preflop
 

I would have called, but I don't mind the fold at all. Chances are you are behind at least one of the players (and if original raiser is really "uber-tight" does he really have something like AQ? I think it's likely you are behind both.

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

My mistake about SSHE.

As I see it, you have to base your decision on long-term profitability and any intangibles you know about that game and those players. Even if you can't put one of them on a premium hand (AA-KK-AKs-QQ), considering how you describe the players, you almost have to put one of them on a premium hand. More importantly, you cannot know for certain that either one of them doesn't have a premium hand--in which case, you are going in a dog to at least one hand. That, coupled with the fact that you have a LAG to act after you, with a nice size pot, makes a call difficult.

I would fold--but I'm weaker and tighter than most 2+2ers. I don't see how you can call--I see your choices as raise or fold.

I'm still curious what you make of the second player's call.

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

I thought it was likely I was behind the original raiser. I could be ahead of the caller -- he was capable of calling with a small pair or hand like AJ here. My problem was, I had no idea how to play the flop if I made top pair. What if I get an A or K on the flop and the opener bets $50 (about a pot sized bet). Calling commits half my stack with "just" top pair.

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

don't mind your weak play if the raiser really is 'uber tight'

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

The question here is would villain raise with anything less than AA or KK. If you think he would it's proper to call because it's at worst a coin toss. If he's got Queens and you hit TPTK on the flop, you have him beat. You can get away from the hand if you don't or if the players to act reraise and villain pushes but at least try and see a flop.

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
The question here is would villain raise with anything less than AA or KK. If you think he would it's proper to call because it's at worst a coin toss. If he's got Queens and you hit TPTK on the flop, you have him beat. You can get away from the hand if you don't or if the players to act reraise and villain pushes but at least try and see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no.

even if his hand range is AA-JJ and AKs here, the fold is still correct unless he has some kind of physical read on the player and plans to blow him off his hand when he's behind.

Also, consider what happens when QQ beats an AK that makes a pair. now consider what happens when QQ is beat by AK.

given the read, OP played it perfectly.

fim

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

I guess it's a leak in my game that I hope to see a flop with the 4th best hand in HE.

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The question here is would villain raise with anything less than AA or KK. If you think he would it's proper to call because it's at worst a coin toss. If he's got Queens and you hit TPTK on the flop, you have him beat. You can get away from the hand if you don't or if the players to act reraise and villain pushes but at least try and see a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, no.

even if his hand range is AA-JJ and AKs here, the fold is still correct unless he has some kind of physical read on the player and plans to blow him off his hand when he's behind.

Also, consider what happens when QQ beats an AK that makes a pair. now consider what happens when QQ is beat by AK.

given the read, OP played it perfectly.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

And furthermore, it's a coinflip only if it's heads up and you get to see all five cards against some pair below kings. But Hero is not just a coinflip b/c it's going to be at least a three way pot. And with Hero just calling, it's pretty much begging the blinds to come along for the ride. In a 4-5 way pot, A-K is real difficult to play. I don't think calling is bad, but I think there's a lot to be said for just folding and waiting for a better spot rather than potentially putting myself in a real difficult one. And if his read is that the original raiser has aces or kings, I think you have to trust that.

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's a leak in my game that I hope to see a flop with the 4th best hand in HE.

[/ QUOTE ]

when your opponent's hand range is the #1-4 and #14 hand in holdem, it is a leak to call his PFR holding the #14 hand.

that's the first semi-correct thing you've said in this thread.

fim

Re: Folding AK preflop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's a leak in my game that I hope to see a flop with the 4th best hand in HE.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a leak in your game that you don't understand implied odds and reverse implied odds.