Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

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Until you find a way to determine who the best players are and have them all play against each other, you will never be able to determine the best player.


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These is a way.. it is the big cash games that Barry is talking about. People prove they are great by being great in the biggest games when everything is on the line.

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

All of us here don't play high enough or see what goes on in that particular tier 1 game. But that Top 5 list Greenstein puts up is very close to the list I would imagine.

Notice that Ivey no longer plays tournaments as much anymore, and mostly live ring games. He IMO would be the toughest player today to play against.

I also like the way Greenstein defends the sport of poker, but I think he's being a bit too harsh on the way tournament poker has entered into the scene and how the media has redistributed the words "great poker player" to tournament poker winners as opposed to cash game players.

The media is always going to have some sort of subjective bias towards poker and everything else for that matter. But they have directly created a huge stream of new players for the regular pros all around.

I'm buying his book when it comes out. I'd be an idiot not too.

Lawrence

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

Looks to me like Barry is just fishing by throwing some bait in the water

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

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Looks to me like Barry is just fishing by throwing some bait in the water

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exactly. i wonder who bites...

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

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Looks to me like Barry is just fishing by throwing some bait in the water

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exactly. i wonder who bites...

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his poker chums?

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

toots, you slay me.

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

OK, Barry G., I'll take your word for it - you're better than everyone in the world except those other four players you list.

Really, besides coming off sounding awfully arrogant, he comes off sounding sour grapes because the media portrays some other players as "great" players. This kind of term is so subjective you can't argue with it very much.

One of the reason people love tournaments on TV is that there is a definite winner, a definite runner-up, etc. You can even do long-term results, e.g. CardPlayer's Player of the Year, based on lots of tournaments. If these "great" cash players kept good records and published them, maybe then we could determine for sure who are the best cash players, but I haven't seen such records. Even if they did publish their results, I don't know that I would trust them, unless a third-party kept accurate records. Until then, it's all just heresay.

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

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So why should he care if a bunch of clueless people think that Chris Moneymaker is the greatest player ever?

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Do you think Michael Jordon wants to be considered one of the top few basketball players that ever lived? Do you think that the football greats wouldn't be a little upset if people were saying that a bunch of people who never played in the NFL (the biggest game) were great players?

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To add to this: the first time MJ returned to the game, his reason for doing it was that he was sick of hearing his kids say that Shaq was the best player of all time.

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

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"There are five top players: There's Doyle Brunson, there's Chip Reese, there's Chau Giang, there's Phil Ivey, there's myself," Greenstein says."

I would like to clarify something. Is Barry talking about ALL AROUND play? Surely he can't be suggesting that there is no one better than any of these five in ANY typically played game? I am sure I can name at least one person off this list who plays better than at least one person on the list in Limit Holdem, Pot limit Omaha, Eight or Better Stud and No Limit Deuce To Seven.

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Wow, is Vince really that good?

-- M. Ruff

Re: \"They\'d be drawing dead.\" Barry G on tournament pros...
 

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Notice that Ivey no longer plays tournaments as much anymore, and mostly live ring games.

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he undoubtedly still plays mostly cash, but i think he's actually playing more tournaments again...

08-May-05 WSOP Circuit Lake Tahoe -- 2nd $299,360
18-Apr-05 WPT Championship Vegas -- 6th $264,195
29-Mar-05 World Poker Challenge -- 3rd $163,908
20-Mar-05 WSOP Circuit Rio Vegas -- 8th $63,270