Re: atheistic morality
 

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That is what atheists argue- the community determines the standard.

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Not all atheists argue this. Read Ayn Rand's development of Objectivist ethics for an example of a non-God-given objective moral standard.

Re: atheistic morality
 

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Why do anything to help others? Why not a philosophy that advocates killing as many possible, and bringing as much pain as possible to all?

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If you found out tomorrow that no gods existed, would you suddenly start pushing old ladies over instead of helping them across streets?

Many theists say they would, but they are not giving themselves enough credit.

The fact is, people like being nice to each other. Being a real bastard is, for most people, much less pleasing.

Re: atheistic morality
 

better yet - summarize the argument for me right here!

Re: atheistic morality
 

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I'm not sure what you mean by "code"? Do you mean a list of unqualified behaviors, like "thou shalt not kill?" Clearly this is a deeply problematic way of creating a moral code. Clearly sometimes killing is the only good and right option (say, when killing one deranged person will save many more).


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I believe that absolute moral code (that would be god given) would require every possible action to be either right or wrong.

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Also I agree that every christian soldier who kills is doing what the code says they shouldn't do.


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On that note I'm still waiting to hear about this God given absolute moral code that apparently exists.


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I'll leave that for those who believe it really exists.

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Just as we can compute additional digits of pi through study, we can learn to understand how our behavior can approach the moral principles we put forth.


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We can try to behave according to our moral principles, but even if that takes us closer to potential "absolute moral code" we don't have any way to know if we are approaching it or not.

Anyway, as both of sides are refusing to update their opinions on this issue, it's pointless to continue any further.

"I'll get me coat"

Re: atheistic morality
 

"can be no such thing as an objective, absolute morality "
I don't see that being possible even WITH a religious foundation to "back" it up.

Re: atheistic morality
 

Let's try to agree on a few definitions first, and then see if there is something meaningful to argue about. If you define good/evil, moral/immoral in terms of God, then by your definitions atheistic morality is a self contradictory and nonsensical term. I think that most people have a different definition of morality, so that atheistic morality is a topic worthy of debate, and not a tautological impossibility.

I suggest that we agree that "sin" and "holiness" can be defined in terms of God, and that morality should be defined in God-less terms. (This does not mean that a God believer can't believe that good/right/moral actions are those which are pleasing to God and that bad/evil/immoral acts are those which displease God; it just means that we don't define those words in terms of pleasing God.)

I am willing to concede that if we define "sin" and "holiness" in terms of God, then to an atheist there is no sin or holiness. If we define "morality" as the code of conduct put forward by a society or accepted by an individual, then I think that atheistic morality is perfectly reasonable. I would even go so far as to say that it is a proven fact - there are atheists with moral codes, and the evidence of this is very convincing. Proof of God's existence is much less convincing to many people, including me.

On many questions of morality, the overwhelming majority of people agree. On other questions of morality, there is a much more even split (often split 3 ways; eg. "It's right!" "It's wrong!" "I'm not sure!"). In the sense of having unanimous agreement, there is no "absolute" morality, regardless of whether or not you base your moral code on religious beliefs.

Given that unanimity is impossible, and that agreement on some basic principles is fairly wide-spread, what do we mean by the term "absolute morality"? Does it mean that an act is good or evil regardless of who does it and what the circumstances are? Does it simply mean "consistent and meaningful"?

I feel that you insult non-believers whenever you imply: <ul type="square">[*] They must be immoral or amoral.[*]Their moral judgements are "not meaningful".[*]They are not entitled to an opinion on issues of morality.[*]By admitting they don't believe in God, they somehow imply that their moral and ethical judgements lack validity and are meaningless.[/list]
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It seems ridiculous to me to hear an atheist, one who admits that his views have no real substance, validity, import, etc., rant about how horrible the war is (or how noble it is), how we should believe (or not believe) this about the environment, etc. I understand this is a philosophically delicate topic, and I have not effectively articulated my thoughts to the degree I wish I could. But I do believe my basic ideas are correct, being (1) w/i atheism, there is no such thing as objective morality; (2) the most atrocious crimes committed in the history of the world are not really 'evil' in the sense that most people understand 'evil' to mean (poorly stated, but im tired and multitalbing, too!); (3) murder, rape, etc. is not really, objectively, and absolutely wrong and evil; (4) all arguments in such a world have absolutely zero moral truth inherent in them.

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I find this characterization quite offensive. I think that your reliance on God for justifying your views on morality has somehow blinded you to the fact that other peoples views on morality have a lot of meaning, validity, and import even if they don't invoke God is justifying those views.

Re: atheistic morality
 

Some of you are saying that even with religion, there can still be no 'absolute morality'. I do not understand this. Assuming the Christian religion is true, then there is an all powerful, all good God who from whom flows an ultimate standard of good and of evil. Although as fallible, weak human beings we may not agree on exactly what this standard consists of, it nonetheless exists out in the great Platonic sky. Murder is absolutely wrong. 'Love' is absolutely good.

Re: atheistic morality
 

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'Love' is absolutely good.

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NAMBLA?

Re: atheistic morality
 

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Assuming the Christian religion is true, then there is an all powerful, all good God who from whom flows an ultimate standard of good and of evil.

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By what standard is God good? His own? Do you see why that doesn't impress us?