Re: Consumer Versus Higher Wages?
 

Oh cool thanks for the links,maybe the 83 billion I read was just U.S. sales I dunno.

Re: Consumer Versus Higher Wages?
 

I happen to prefer TGT to Wally World just because TGT stores are cleaner, and their customer service in-store is much better. I don't mind paying a little bit more for that.

Re: Consumer Versus Higher Wages?
 

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Oh cool thanks for the links,maybe the 83 billion I read was just U.S. sales I dunno.

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Probably for a single quarter.

Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

I agree. If employers were fair I'd have to get into another business. And sure, it is a business to the extent that we must service our "customers". But it is a not for profit business.

The fixation on the dues issue is typical yet always overstated. This is a common anti-organizing tactic used to inflict fear. The best is when management buys like 8 shopping carts worth of groceries, puts it in the workplace, and says, "This is what a year's dues could have bought". A strike fund is necessary, sure, but since you are positing that the union is greedily hoarding the dues money, doesn't that mean that the greedy union executive would DISCOURAGE strike activity? And, like you said, unions seldom win strikes (based on financial gains anyway).

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Strikes... What's more, the union's often willing to strike for things the employees would never go to the mat for (DUES CHECKOFF!), and these days, unions just don't win strikes.

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Well, you must be referring to the primitive right to work states where this could still be an issue. It isn't an issue anywhere else since the Wagner Act. And I'm pretty sure that even in those states it is the bargaining unit that gets to vote on whether or not to strike.

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Also, I'd be cautious about accepting Hamish's lofty moral rhetoric. A union isn't the Red Cross. Unions are big business. Federal law requires all unions to disclose their annual finances, and the numbers are just staggering. The Teamsters bring in almost $200 million dollars, half of which goes to union salaries, and another 20% or so goes to cash reserves. Any honest company would kill for that kind of profit margin.

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I did not mean that a union was a "social agency" as well, I consider a union definitely seperate and superior to other social agencies. I have as much of a problem with handouts as the next person. That is not our business. No gains in the union/management relationship comes for free. They are hard won.

You are correct about union dues as far as the amounts go, it is, by law, in the public domain. Laws requiring disclosure of union finances and salaries are extemely rigid and ensure the whole business is transparent. Clearly there can be no argument about any kind of shady union investment or spending. It is simply not allowed. The dues pay salaries. How else are you going to run it? You have to pay premiums on insurance policies.

Finally, don't be fooled by our friend bobman. The incredible amount of money spent by companies on union avoidance and union-busting goes to his firm's coffers. Companies massively outspend unions during an organizing drive or even when there is no threat of unionization at all. Unions are hopelessly outgunned in this department despite bobman's claim of union wealth. Lawyers like bobman profit from the company's ignorance. And I don't blame the legal firm. Companies are absolutely terrified that employees will begin to receive a fair shake. Clouding the issues, dividing, and muck-raking are all standardly used practices. But at least, people like bobman also tend to educate the company's management on their many failings so that, perhaps, they straighten their act up sufficiently.

In solidarity, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hamish

Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

I'll paste my post again, this time to you:

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For your information, I know quite a bit about unions, because I was a member of UFCW during high school, and they took dues out of my paycheck. One year later the grocery store had to close down due to unreasonable demands from the local.

And your arguments don't make any economic sense. What you are doing as attempting to raise the equilibrium price of labor in the market, and all this does is raise prices on consumer and make consumers think that unions are just a bunch of lazy people who want more money for doing less.

I'll also note that most of the people that I worked with at my grocery job were twice my age, lazy as hell, and I wished that there was no union so they could all be canned.

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Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

Actually, I'm not a lawyer, I'm still in law school, but I'm currently working in a "primitive right-to-work state." (I think you're just mad you can't win any elections around here... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

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Clearly there can be no argument about any kind of shady union investment or spending.

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I must be mistaken, because it seems like you're bragging about how unions are SO likely to be corrupt that they're required by federal law to account for every penny they spend. And I don't think anyone is going to argue that union corruption is entirely relegated to the fairly recent past.

As for the rest, I'm glad they pay us as much as they do. I wouldn't be so proud that your activities are so destructive of industry that tight-fisted businessmen will fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars to protect themselves from you. And as you pointed out, our advice is almost always to encourage employers to address employee grievances before a union gets in... we can't really be cast as villains here.

Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

A Student!?! Well, son, there is still time to switch away from the dark side. Our side is way more exciting, believe me, and you'll make only be taking about a 40% pay cut.

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I must be mistaken, because it seems like you're bragging about how unions are SO likely to be corrupt that they're required by federal law to account for every penny they spend.

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Some unions were corrupt in the past. Now the legislation makes it impossible. Glad we agree.

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And as you pointed out, our advice is almost always to encourage employers to address employee grievances before a union gets in... we can't really be cast as villains here.

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Meh, I was rethinking giving any credit at all to union-busting firms even as I was typing it. It's not even in a union-busting's firm's interest to educate the company. And anyway, law student, who's this "we" and "our" you're talking about?

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I wouldn't be so proud that your activities are so destructive of industry that tight-fisted businessmen will fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars to protect themselves from you.

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It ain't Norma [censored] Rae every day. But sometimes it is. I am proud of what I do. I'd be surprised to meet any management side lawyers that are proud of what they do and treat it other than a good, high-stress, living using the skills they have accumulated. Seriously, take a look at that book I mentioned. It is anti-union but a great read if that is what you plan on pursuing once you graduate.....kid.


In solidarity,

Hamish

Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

I admire your patience. Some good stuff Hamish. I've appreciated it.

Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

Tks, I've noticed you as the only other supporter, I think, haha, sorry I haven't chimed in on your own debate there. Obviously, internet forums and this one in particular have pretty skewed demographics so I'm entering a minefield , but it is fun anyway since the only other time I get into these debates is at the local........pub, that is.

Re: Mass defection from the AFL-CIO
 

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I'd be surprised to meet any management side lawyers that are proud of what they do and treat it other than a good, high-stress, living using the skills they have accumulated.

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I had previously imagined you knew what you're talking about, but this makes me wonder. Every management lawyer I've spoken to LOVES, LOVES, LOVES what they do. As I've already mentioned, the anti-union side isn't just about oppressing workers, there's a real, albeit different, vision of what the workplace should be like. The managing partner of my firm was down doing some union avoidance training last week, which I was observing, and he was capering around like a little kid he was having so much fun.

I'll check that book out, old man.