View Full Version : Angle Shooter + Poor Dealer = Clark breaks a rule

04-29-2002, 03:14 AM
Still teaching the girlfriend to play holdem and she is still pretty unsure of herself. We went to a place with 4-8 only because it was close to her house and convenient. Tonight, the following hand took place and circumstances after the hand caused me to knowingly violate the "One player to a hand" rule.

Its a kill pot. Angle Shooter (AS) is the killer. He has been doing things like bringing his chips all the way forward, hitching like a bet, then checking when his opponent started to call. He also liked to wait a long time to goad the person after him into acting. Liked to wave his hand in the air, indicating check, then saying "I never checked". Things like this. Combine that with the fact that he was trying to bully the table, and I really started to dislike this cat. I outbullied him on a few hands, but my girlfriend didn't know how to counter his aggressive strategy.

Anyways, 4 players including my girlfriend see the flop of Ks 9d 6d. Angle Shooter bets, Girlfriend calls, Guy Falling Asleep (GFA) calls. 3 to the turn. Turn is Kd, checked around. River is 9s. Checked around.

Final board: Ks 9d 6d Kd 9s.

This house has a (usually) well enforced rule. First position shows first. Angle shooter stalls for almost a whole minute before someone (not the dealer) says "cmon, just show". He flips over 6h2h. He is playing the board. He (purposely) misstates his hand saying "I've got two pair, Kings and sixes".

The dealer doesn't correct him and now looks at my girlfriend. She is looking at the board and seems unsure of what to do. It is her turn to act and I look her right in the eye and sternly say "Flip over your cards now honey" (I had no clue what her hand was, but I knew she HAD to be able to beat 6 high). She then flips over AsTs. GFA now mucks, Angle Shooter throws a fit and the dealer pushes my girlfriend the pot.

I don't feel good about it, but I'll be damned if someone's gonna angle shoot my girlfriend and get away with it. In hindsight I wish I had talked to the shift manager about the dealers action, but at least she got the pot. In the end, it made me realize that I need to work with her some more before I let her play in a 4-8 game. I made sure we left when her blind reached her.

04-29-2002, 05:56 AM
just tell her, when in ANY doubt, flip your cards. fell a stall comin on..not sure...flip em. i flip em whether its my turn or not at times. then if i wanna see a guys hand ill ask for it.

that was a minor infraction in my book. i see this quite a bit on LL...people telling a newbie to show at showdown...

it's checked around on the river....its not like your telling her to call a bet. *there wasnt a bet* screw that moron.

if it was my g/f, or a friend who i know is learning, id probably say the same thing.


04-29-2002, 09:18 AM

04-29-2002, 09:24 AM

04-29-2002, 09:38 AM
right? maybe you'd feel better if you had just said to her, "showdown honey, cards speak, turn em over...if you broke a rule to protect your own, well, you wouldn't be the first...

i am glad you didn't speak to the floor though about the dealer, thou. i mean he did push the pot to the winner, right? while it's true if he calls the shooters hand correctly, maybe she figures it out on her own, but maybe not as well. HE can't tell her to turn her cards over though, but he did let YOU do it.

some may argue keeping quiet and maybe letting her lose the pot may be a better lesson for her in the long run...but of course painful to watch and tough on the household finances

04-29-2002, 10:06 AM
Vigilante justice is part of the poker landscape. I think you were in line.

04-29-2002, 10:30 AM
hmm. i assumed he was in the game as well. if he wasnt then it was a borderline transgression imho.


04-29-2002, 11:36 AM
I'm assuming you were playing. I certainly think you were in your rights to correct "angle shooter" and state that it was K's and 9's with a 6 kicker when he misdeclares his hand and call attention to the fact that he was doing so.

04-29-2002, 12:37 PM
I have NO problem with what you did, ESPECIALLY with that goof playing games...

... and I'm not sure whether this really violates the OPTAH rule, since you only told her to flip her cards, not bet or anything else.

Stuff the guy..

04-29-2002, 12:59 PM

04-29-2002, 01:59 PM
the only thing i would dop differently is tell the angle shooter to stick it when he threw a fit. otherwise good for you you definitely did the right thing.


04-29-2002, 03:32 PM

I think what you did was correct. Anyway, have your girlfriend read John Fox's "Play Poker, Quit Work, and Sleep Till Noon." Even though the book is about draw poker, most of the behavioural aspects still apply to todays game. The book is filled with lots of examples of angle shooting.

Good Luck


04-29-2002, 04:15 PM
The general opinion is this guy deserved what he got because he was an angle shooter. What if the guy in question had been a total gentleman at the table? What if he had just turned over his cards and not made the 2 pair comment? I think he got what he deserved but if the situation had involved me (who is always a gent at the table,lol) I may have been a tad irritated by the comment. Not enough to get really upset about, but I do beleive people should only play their hands and not tell others what to do, which is what Clark did.

04-29-2002, 05:26 PM
He (purposely) misstates his hand saying "I've got two pair, Kings and sixes".

What if you stated, "You're playing the board, Kings over nines with a six kicker. Anybody with a card higher than a six beats you."

I don't have any problem with what you did, BTW. Mark's suggestion of making a gift of John Fox's book is excellent. It'll let her know what is really possible in the angle shooting department, and is a lot of fun to read.

04-29-2002, 06:45 PM
You did nothing wrong here. Your intent was to have the pot go to the best hand. Jerky's intent was to steal a pot that didn't belong to him.

04-29-2002, 06:48 PM
If the guys a perfect gentleman, he gives the pot to the best hand.

04-29-2002, 07:30 PM
hey shnookie lumps, ill be your girlfriend if youll sit with me and help me not throw away the best hand. it's a mistake i make pretty often.

im an adamant defender of the one player to a hand rule, but isnt there a if you mis-declare your hand it's now dead and you could be penalized rule as well?

04-29-2002, 07:48 PM
New players donate a ton of money to the table. If people are mean to them, they will no longer lose at poker and we will all be playing against each other. If you lose a pot to someone who can't read the board, you are going to get your money back if you keep them in the game. No reason to get upset. New players should be helped (with basics such as when to show their cards, not folding when there is no bet, etc..., but not when to value bet or call on the river)

I was playing in the Bellagio 8-16 a few months ago and there was a very friendly player (who plays in the NHL and therefore has some money to lose) who was obviously new to the game. He almost didn't show his hand once thinking his opponent had folded and the player next to him corrected him before he mucked. His 2-pair beat some woman's AA. She whined a little about "one player to a hand". The dealer got involved and when questioned as to why the new player should not be helped he said "we want him to fold the best hand". I thought this was very inapproprite and made the game very uncomfortable for the new player. He probably lost 600 in 5 hrs so only an idiot would want to scare him away. Besides this, he was very friendly, and it was the right thing to do to help him out. Given the fact that with the exception of that one woman we were all very nice to him he will be back.

Sidenote: One of my favorite lines ever came from that game when a good player checked the river behind the hockey player with a full house. When someone commented "Softplay!" he seriously responded "He's my idol!"

04-30-2002, 12:53 AM
If the dealer did his job correctly I wouldn't have gotten involved. But since the dealer simply sat there silently, I felt the need to get involved.

All the dealer has to do is declare the correct hand, "K's and 9's with a 6", push the whole board up indicating the players hand, then ask the next player to either show or muck. I would have then silently sat there and let her muck if she so chose.

A friend today suggested that I should have simply corrected the stated hand by saying it out loud. I think that was also an acceptable course of action, and probabaly preferable over telling her to show her cards.

04-30-2002, 04:37 AM
You said you didn't feel good about what you did. Well, if I were you, I would have felt great about it.

04-30-2002, 06:00 AM
I have often seen players who clearly are having trouble reading the board. And I have often seen other players - complete strangers - say to them "just turn them over, the dealer will read them for you", or similar. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Doubly so if a person is taking advantage.

Oh no!! Not again!

04-30-2002, 07:07 AM
If that's the most sinful thing you do in your life, I reckon they'll give you a line pass to the Pearly Gates.

I think the key here is to get the shift manager, tell him that you're leaving and why you're leaving. Mention specifically the angle shooter and the dealer's inability/unwillingness to correct an incorrectly called hand.

Watch for a post describing what effect that had for me.

Regards, Lee

04-30-2002, 01:37 PM
...when the angle-shooter miscalled his hand and the dealer appeared to misread it as well, you could have quickly corrected them both--everyone is entitled to read a hand that has been shown down.

04-30-2002, 02:04 PM
I don't have any problem with what you did. I don't see telling somebody to show them down is as bad, especially against an angle shooter.

One of the worst cases of this I've seen was a guy AGAINST his own girlfriend, and it cost her a big pot. We were in a very loose 3/6 game, and the Angle shooter posts a live straddle. I look down to find pocket Queens. There is a ton of action as there often is in straddle pots. The board paired sixes on the turn, and a King falls on the river. The hand plays out with AS, his gf and I still alive at the show down. The AS calls his hand as trip 6's, but doesn't show them down yet; his gf mucks a King(a couple of players saw it, but she didn't table it), and I wait for him to table his trips. After about a minute, he tables the cards and no six. I drug a huge pot! I could believe the guy putting that move on me, but on his own gf?!!! He must be used to not getting any(She was not impressed)... lol

Good luck, and may the flop be with you,


05-01-2002, 07:31 PM
Heck, I probably tell my wife to show her cards even if it was Mother Theresa who flipped over the 62 and said nothing. So, with this angle shooter, it's a gimme that I break the rule you speak of.

05-01-2002, 07:42 PM
i think if my wife was playing poker with mother theresa, id stay the hell out of it altogether.