View Full Version : Lee puts his foot down

04-16-2002, 06:32 PM
Scene: a very good Garden City 20-40. I'm up a few stacks, the game is flowing smoothly, a couple of the biggest donors have just arrived. Things are looking good.

Situation 1: "MW", a sullen, nasty, regular (and major donor) gets aces cracked for the rest of his chips. He fires his cards at the dealer, and stands up - I think to move to another seat. On his way, the floorman says something to him. I am told that he got a 30-minute "time-out" (good term to use with that kind of behavior). Anyway, he disappears for about half an hour.

Game continues, I win another stack, MW returns, buys in another $500 that is sure to make its way to the rest of us. He doesn't go ten minutes before...

Situation 2: it's MW's button. We pay a $3 button charge here. Dealer politely asks him for his button charge. He fires two chips across the table, one hits her in the chest. Dealer glares at him and tells him not to do that.

Lee finally shows some moxie. I stand up, get a couple of racks, and announce that I'm not putting up with that - they can have my action or his, but not both. I tell this in a stern voice to the floorman. Now Kathy, the shift manager, makes the mistake of being in the general area. She and I have known each other for 15 years or so, and had exchanged brief pleasantries earlier. She asks what's going on; I tell her (this is not the first "MW" story she's ever ben told).

I simply tell them that it's their cardroom and they can do what they want, but I'm not sticking around if they're going to allow that kind of behavior. Then I go to the cage (tell my friend the cashier why I'm leaving) and hit the door.

+1 "no more tolerating bullshit behavior" unit.

Regards, Lee

04-16-2002, 06:55 PM

you are more than +1 in my book. nice job! it is too bad that the rest of the table didn't follow suit and make a major statement about abusive behavior. the real key to this is, could you get up and leave the same juicy game if you were stuck two racks? i don't know if i am that principled. are you? just a thought not a challenge. please follow up with what transpired with this situation. J.Brown

04-16-2002, 07:38 PM

You gave up some financial EV, yet gained in principle.

It shows how short sighted the powers that be in poker often are.

How many potential new players would dare enter such a game?

Nero offers bad beat jackpots while Rome burns.


To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle.


04-16-2002, 08:28 PM
I applaud your actions. I wish more would respond like you did.

I play in a small town. I make a point of telling the operator when I cash out if I leaving because of poor behavior at the table. Three months ago I switched rooms because my complaints went unheeded at my regular room. Its funny because the room I went to I was boycotting because of high rake. They had lowered it but it took poor management in the other room for me to give this room another try. Once you lose a customer its very difficult to get them back.

04-16-2002, 08:30 PM
Being stuck should have no bearing on your decision.

04-16-2002, 08:59 PM
If you are there to make money terrible decision to leave.

If you are there to play and enjoy hte game great move.

Sounds like a utility function to me. For me personally this does not bother me until it effects me and then I make it very clear (almost to a scene) that I won't tolerate being whatevered. This usually prevents it in the future.

The dealer is a big boy/girl and can call floor to remedy.

Would you have left if you were stuck? If yes nice principles if no ......

Just my opinion

04-16-2002, 10:35 PM
i hope you do that in a game i am in. it opens up a seat for another live one:).

04-16-2002, 11:21 PM

you know that i couldn't agree more--it shouldn't matter if you are stuck or not, BUT, i know from some of my past foolish behavior that i have sat through unspeakably horrific behavior at a card table chasing that almighty dollar. i am much more principled now than i used to be maybe it has come from hanging around you a little bit. see you soon. J.Brown

04-17-2002, 01:10 AM
perhaps you've missed the extensive discussion on this topic here. or perhaps you don't buy the idea that this behavior DOES effect you in a -EV way. this kind of behavior is EXACTLY why a lot of new players remain outside the cardroom. sure, you have 1 juicy guy who gets away with being an asshole because nobody wants to drive away the soft stacks. but this guy everybody wants around is actually scaring off untold numbers of unskilled players who would rather dump their money to other games than to the jerks at the poker table.

Excellent job Lee, hopefully this trend doesn't have to continue for long before the games get better and more enjoyable.

04-17-2002, 03:51 AM
Lee - I sincerely doubt that one person makes a difference.

Maybe two will.

Count me in.

(and, I'm kidding, I know one person makes a difference).

Thanks, congrats, and good luck.


04-17-2002, 07:11 AM
Well it looks like I'm gonna be the only dissenting opinion here. Leaving because the live one isn't forced to leave is bad policy. I once did something similar this and there were mixed reactions at the table, a couple people were saying things to the effect of "I'm glad to see you didn't take that shit from tha guy", while others were saying "that guy was awful why the fu*k did you drive him away"!?!. Anyway it got me thinking, and I think I did the wrong thing by driving the guy off. This guy was worse then the average bad player here in California, in other words he was REALLY awful. Anyway his abuse towards me, the floorman, and the dealer are not the responsibility of the players to the point where we give the casino an ultimatum. This is just silly, I have two good friends who are full time dealers and the reality is that these guys make a fairly good living considering the education and skills required (let me say that I personally don't think I would make a good dealer) but this is just one of the tradeoffs. These dealers that have any sense shouldn't care at all about abuse from players- afterall how does it really effect them??? does it harm them or traumatize them in any way- of course not, and if they let that happen to themselves then it is merely a weakness on their part. Leave the duties of the floor personnel up to them, and if some idiot is being out of line just think to yourself that the most miserable person in the whole affair is probably the guy who is pissed and bitter. The dealer is usually smart enough to just let the stupid remarks and occaisional card/chip flung at them not adversely affect their day. Anyway, I guess the bottom line here is to never let some jerk at a table force YOU yourself to do something that you don't really want to do. Of course if this was an excuse to lock up a "sure win" session then I guess maybe there were other motivations but I'm assuming that wasn't the case here.

Finally I want to mention that I am in no way saying bad behavior should be tolerated, I have mentioned here in the past that tolerance levels for these jerks is too high, but I will NEVER let one of these clowns get me in a bad mood or feeling like I shouldn't be playing in the same game as them. If the world was closer to perfect, all the losing players would enjoy dumping their money off, but unfortunately most of them aren't that way. So just roll with the punches and let the floormen figure out situatons like this.


04-17-2002, 11:00 AM
More likely it opens up a seat for someone who intends to compete with you for the abusive live one's money.

04-17-2002, 11:01 AM
Once is circumstance, twice is coincidence, but three times is enemy action.

("Let's all sing it together when it comes around on the guitar.")

04-17-2002, 11:50 AM
perhaps you've missed the extensive discussion on this topic here. or perhaps you don't buy the idea that this behavior DOES effect you in a -EV way. this kind of behavior is EXACTLY why a lot of new players remain outside the cardroom.

Just so.

04-17-2002, 11:58 AM
I'll take as a compliment that Ray would prefer to have a random new arrival rather than me in the chair :-).

In my post, "Just so" above, I simply quoted Baggins' review of the bidding. I (and others) claim that one bad actor, permitted to get away with such behavior, scares away more money (in the form of new customers) than he produces on his own.

I was having dinner with a very successful Las Vegas poker pro a couple of days ago. He said, "I am in the entertainment business". Exactly. And if you're in a business, you need customers. And if you're in the entertainment business, you need happy customers. By allowing one customer to scare away multiple customers, you are costing yourself customers.

Sure, you can't "see" the customers that the nasty one is scaring away. This is a truism - you can't see them because they're not there because he scared them away.

I would think that to prevent/punish bad behavior would be the most obvious of business decisions for those of you that are "in the entertainment business."

Regards, Lee

04-17-2002, 12:01 PM

04-17-2002, 12:19 PM

If someone were able to take the sentence "one bad actor, permitted to get away with such behavior, scares away more money (in the form of new customers) than he produces on his own." and, using some sort of microchip, implant it into the brain of every card club owner, card club stockholder, card room manager, and floorman in the poker industry, would it be a violation of copyright?



04-17-2002, 02:34 PM

I tried to email you at your old address and it was returned with one of those "unknown address errors". Would it be possible to email me your correct email address at ricknebiolo@earthlink.net?



04-17-2002, 04:52 PM
I know who MW is. He is annoying. I've confronted him about his behavior when he really goes off and he usually mellows out for at least an hour. FWIW, he's been barred (for the time being) from Bay101.

04-18-2002, 01:44 AM
well kris, i guess i can say i see your point. but i think that what Lee did was part of a bigger thing than one asshole in one game. there are plenty of losers out there who would play poker and dump their cash to you if it weren't for guys who get away with treating other human beings like dirt. if i were a dealer, i wouldn't give 2 shits. the other players at the table are that much more likely to see that i get treated better, and tipped better. but as a player, these jerks are ruining the state of the poker world. so many tourists are intimidated by what they see going on in the cardrooms, stuff like this guy gets away with. sure, in california you are not wanting for soft stacks. but lotsa places lose valuable customers because of jerks like this. besides, its easier to take $$ from clueless people who are enjoying giving you their $$ than from jerks who can't stand it.

04-19-2002, 01:34 PM
well, its a psychological fact that if they get used to putting up with abuse in the casino itll spill over to other areas of their life (in that theyll be more apt to put up with abuse).

where i play 2 guys had a disagreement so they went outside and fought (couldnt have been a real fight because the loser was back within a week looking no worse for wear), and i really think that that is the beginning of courtesy.


04-19-2002, 01:51 PM
The appalling thing is that management continued to let this jerk play. When a customer abuses employees, it's the responsibility of managment to do something about it. It doesn't matter if it's a poker room or not.