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ThaSaltCracka
03-10-2004, 02:27 PM
okay, now as much fun as some of your are having using CrisBrown as a punching bag, maybe I can divert your attention to this hand, I would appreciate some insight.

$5 SnG /images/graemlins/grin.gif on Stars, only one table too..... anyways
we are down to 4, third gets a meager 6 bucks, 4th gets a beer from the fridge.
I am the short stack, although not by much, one player has around 5k, another right below 3k, third has just above 2300, and I have ~2000.
Blinds are 75/150
I am dealt JJ UTG. Now because I was the short stack I have been making several steal plays to get to where I was at, you know pushing with KTs, hoping for no callers, using my posistion, etc...
so with this hand,(which BTW I HATE), I decided to try to steal again. first mistake??? Maybe I should have raised to 500?? 800?? I dunno, I push my stack though.
everyone folds to BB, who calls with AQo.
flop is low rags, can't remember completely, anyways turn is a rag, and of course river is A, ahhhh thats Poker Stars for ya /images/graemlins/grin.gif.
so obviously I lost, my question is though, with my hand and my table image, should I have raised 2x-3x's BB, and then pushed on the flop? I know AQ is following me to the flop, he might even force me all in if I raise 2x-3x's.
Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism?

BTW... the beer was a Corona
also BTW /images/graemlins/grin.gif does anyone else hate it when people complain that I lost because thats Poker Stars, as if to imply somehow PS cheats, or always lets the dog win?

ripdog
03-10-2004, 02:37 PM
Yeah,

JJ is vulnerable to lots of cards on the flop, but at this point in the tourney you have to push in and cross your fingers. I'd guess that if you had called, the AQ would have set you in anyway. I find the "that's UB" or whatever site your playing on mentality mildly annoying, but usually I just ignore it. I think that no matter how you play this one pre-flop, you lose all or most of your chips--at the $5 level on UB, AQ unimproved isn't going anywhere regardless of how much you raise.

ThaSaltCracka
03-10-2004, 02:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
the $5 level on UB, AQ unimproved isn't going anywhere regardless of how much you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is true usually early in a tourney, but later on not so much.
so you think regardless of what I raise here AQ is going to force me all in?
I thought seriously about folding this preflop.

William
03-10-2004, 02:57 PM
Salt,

I would have bet 600 pre-flop, called and/or moved in if reraised.

On the flop with small cards, I would have moved in. This gives you a small protection against later overcards (if the others fold) but it also pays less if your hand is good at showdown.

I don't know how people play at the 5$ buy-ins, but I see no reason why they shouldn't take the game seriously. I guess the play at the stakes they can afford, and even what looks as a small amount to others, is relevant to them.

I can't advise you to train at a lower level /images/graemlins/grin.gif (I don't even now if there is one) so hang on, it was a bad beat, it happens.


Take care,
William

PrayingMantis
03-10-2004, 03:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I thought seriously about folding this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding this is a mistake, although it's true that playing JJ here is not an easy task. However, you must play it, IMO.

I see the blinds are still not huge, and even as a short stack you have a lot of time to play. That's why pushing is maybe not the optimal move. On the other hand, if they see you as a regular maniac, for pushing many times, pushing with JJ is maybe best, if you believe someone will call you with an underdog.

There is another option here, and that's to raise, and push on any flop. That can work, sometimes, against players with unimproved AQ or such. If you get reraised all-in PF, I would call.

On the other hand, I'm not completely sure that raising PF, and folding on the flop to a big bet if A or K show, is a bad idea. You'll still have time and chips to play, and if your opponents are passive enough, being short stack, not too short, is not necessarily the end.

Only some thoughts.

ThaSaltCracka
03-10-2004, 03:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I can't advise you to train at a lower level (I don't even now if there is one) so hang on, it was a bad beat, it happens.

[/ QUOTE ]
what do you mean by train? do you mean practice? I mostly play the 5 & 10 SnG's because I don't really want to pay more for the game, although the few 30's I have played I actually enjoyed playing.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop with small cards, I would have moved in

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking this myself after the hand, I know that the only hands that will call here are hands that are or have the potential to dominate me, so maybe I should have seen the flop here before pushing. I sort of thought if I had played it this way, I probably would have won the hand. So I guess I am asking if you guys like this kind of strategy in this situation, with say pocket pairs like 99-QQ.
Thoughts?

NotMitch
03-10-2004, 03:05 PM
William,

Having played a lot in the $5 games at Starts, your game plan is right on. I would make my standard open there and still have plenty of chips as leverage on the flop, or get away from it on a really ugly flop.

ThaSaltCracka
03-10-2004, 03:08 PM
I only thought about folding because I really really hate this hand, and I said that sort of jokingly /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks for the advice guys, I should have opened, and then saw the flop before pushing or folding.

AleoMagus
03-10-2004, 03:10 PM
Personally, I think that hand went exactly as you could have hoped for (except for losing of course)

I know that you are on the bubble here, but I'm not hoping for a steal in this situation - I'm hoping to double up and get back into contention for the win.

If you have been making a ton of steals, I think this is a great hand to push because you are likely to get called by weaker hands that are looking to catch you in the act. Maybe on the bubble a coin flip (even a small edge) is not a great idea?

I don't know. I just think that you are going to steal a lot and even if you are called, not many hands are really gonna scare your jacks too much. QQ, KK, AA is all that really worries you. The only way to avoid paying these hand off is just to fold the jacks outright (or by raising small and checking and folding to a Q,K, or A bet big on the flop) - and 4 handed there is no way I'm doing that.

Interested in others opinions here
Brad S

William
03-10-2004, 03:48 PM
So I guess I am asking if you guys like this kind of strategy in this situation, with say pocket pairs like 99-QQ.

I myself, would like to know the answer to this question /images/graemlins/grin.gif

These are the tricky pairs, the ones that cost you that place at the final table or a bigger money prize.

If people bother to answer, you are going to be burried in different answers, moves, opinions.
All of those answers will be based on personal experiences, so you have to be carefull when you read them.

Anyway, my opinion on the subject is that the lower the pair, the more interested you are in just winning the pot right there. with QQ for example, you are interested in someone calling you, but he has to pay a price for it, and if the flop is rags, you still want him to call you, still for the correct price. If it is 99 or TT, and you weren't able to claim the pot pre-flop, you don't want anybody to see the turn, so you should be trying to push them off the pot.

This sounds easy, but not everybody reacts to your bets as you wish them to do, many factors have an influence on opponents reactions.

The blinds
The size of the stacks at the table
Yours and others positions
Your table image
Your recent actions at the table
Some personal factore we have no way of finding out about
Many other things I have probably forgotten to mention

For example, if you have been stealing a lot, they are all waiting for an occasion to reraise you. Good if you are holding QQ, bad if it is 99.
If there is a very short stack that is trying to double up, again, good with QQ, bad with 99.
If you have a very tight image, good with 99, bad with QQ.
You have stolen the 3 last pots? Good with QQ, bad with 99.

You get the idea; Here is where poker gets complicated; You have to be able to analize all of those factors, and find out how the other players are likely to react to your actions. And it has to go fast, because if you think too much, they will start thinking about that too, unless you WANT them to start wondering and are pausing deliberately.

So I guess we are back at the good old IT DEPENDS. Time to use you brain and find out that because you have so many chips, are in such position, have played/stealed so many hands/pots in the last couple of rounds and because you know this or that about them, and they know you know, etc...the right move is "BINGO"

Confused? That's poker. But there is no magic answer.

Take care,
William

ThaSaltCracka
03-10-2004, 04:12 PM
interesting, there was another thread a while back about low pocket pairs late in the tourney. These type of hand kill me. I usually put to much money in when I should have folded, or not enough at the right time, which results(more than likely) in me losing the pot. now suppose in the original situtaion my hand had been pocket 8's, what should my play be then UTG? is this an auto fold? I guess yeah. however what if I was on the button or SB. Clearly this may be a hand to steal with but what if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar?
I mean if your stack is 15 times the BB, how much of your stack should you throw out there to try to steal, knowing that if you get called, you are probably in trouble. I honestly don't like pocket pairs that much late in a tourney, I would rather have high faces, but maybe thats because I don't really know how to play these hands properly or confidently.

La Brujita
03-10-2004, 04:18 PM
I would have open raised to 600as well and pushed on any low flop (or probably any flop with one overcard).

Speaking of tough plays with pocket pairs is this move I made today good bad or indifferent? Blinds 50-100 at PP 4 handed. Three stacks of 1000 and one BS of 4000. I pick up 8-8 with a stack of 1000 and push all in UTG trying to win the pot. Get called by BS with 9-9 and crash out.

One of the main reasons I am asking is because I may have a leak of being too aggressive on the bubble. I am not always/normally this aggressive but I had been playing very few hands and hoped people would respect my raise.

CrisBrown
03-10-2004, 04:38 PM
Hiya Salt,

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess I am asking if you guys like this kind of strategy in this situation, with say pocket pairs like 99-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

The basic strategy for QQ-99, in the later stages of a SNG, has three alternatives: (a) you win a small pot; (b) you double up; (b) you go broke. Which of those three happens is largely out of your control. There's no magic formula, no brilliant strategy you can use. If no one else has a reason to play, you win a small pot. If someone else has two overcards, you're probably going to face a coin-flip showdown. If they have an underpair, you look good (but not unbeatable). If they have one overcard, you're a 7:3 favorite (but 30% is damn often). If they have a bigger pair, you're buried.

These hands are too good to throw away without a fight, especially if you would open the pot, but they're not so good that you can expect to win with them. They'll win some of the time (sometimes small, sometimes huge) and they'll lose some of the time (usually huge). That's why they call it gambling and not banking.

Cris

William
03-10-2004, 09:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]


The basic strategy for QQ-99, in the later stages of a SNG, has three alternatives: (a) you win a small pot; (b) you double up; (b) you go broke. Which of those three happens is largely out of your control. There's no magic formula, no brilliant strategy you can use. If no one else has a reason to play, you win a small pot. If someone else has two overcards, you're probably going to face a coin-flip showdown. If they have an underpair, you look good (but not unbeatable). If they have one overcard, you're a 7:3 favorite (but 30% is damn often). If they have a bigger pair, you're buried.

These hands are too good to throw away without a fight, especially if you would open the pot, but they're not so good that you can expect to win with them. They'll win some of the time (sometimes small, sometimes huge) and they'll lose some of the time (usually huge). That's why they call it gambling and not banking.

Cris

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, here we disagree BIG time.
You put things as if everytime you have a medium pair in this situation, you're all-in and then the wheel of fortune starts.

This is ABSOLUTELY not true. It is in situations like this that the better players will make the most of it and the less gifted will lose their stack.
I won't repeat myself, go back a couple of posts.

Being able to analyze wich situations you can encounter is good. NOT being able to think and use a strategy that applies to the table you are sitting at is a big leak in your game.
Not good.

William

ThaSaltCracka
03-10-2004, 10:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
These hands are too good to throw away without a fight, especially if you would open the pot, but they're not so good that you can expect to win with them. They'll win some of the time (sometimes small, sometimes huge) and they'll lose some of the time (usually huge).

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree you shouldn't throw them away easily but are these hands you want to see a flop with before you make a definitive move at the pot? Also how would you play these if calling took like 1/5 or 1/4 of your stack? do you push with these or see a flop or fold? I am pressing the issue hear because these hands either [censored] me or I [censored] them /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

William
03-10-2004, 10:17 PM
pick up 8-8 with a stack of 1000 and push all in UTG trying to win the pot. Get called by BS with 9-9 and crash out.

Here, the field is divided.
Some believe that shorthanded, any two big cards and any pair means all-in and good luck.
Others prefer to see the flop and act accordingly.

In your situation though, I believe that UTG and with 2 other players having the same chip amount as you, it is a little of a gamble to move in.

There is no real hurry...

La Brujita
03-10-2004, 10:38 PM
I wasn't too happy with myself after. Tens or higher I always push here, eights and nines are tricky. I just need to give others a chance to bust out on the bubble, 4 fourths today out of 7 tourneys. Luckily I won a $100 which kept me in the good. Bubble play is very very tricky.

As it turned out, I flopped a set and the nines flopped an open ended straight draw, which completed on the turn. I did not fill up.

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 12:28 AM
Hi William,

[ QUOTE ]
WOW, here we disagree BIG time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a shock.

[ QUOTE ]
You put things as if everytime you have a medium pair in this situation, you're all-in and then the wheel of fortune starts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specified that this was end-game situations, where you open the pot. In most such situations, the money isn't deep enough that you can afford to raise 3xBB and then fold if reraised. There are exceptions, but they are just that: exceptions.

Given deep money, yes, you'd rather wait to see the flop.

Given a raise ahead of you, the decision of whether to fold, flat call or reraise (which will usually mean all-in) usually comes down to stack size, your read of your opponent, and your read of your opponent's read of you. Stack size is at least quantifiable; the rest is vague, and you're as likely to be wrong as right, especially in your estimation of your opponents' reads of you.

There is a lot of short-term luck in poker, and nowhere is that more evident than in the play of middle pairs (QQ-99).

Cris

ThaSaltCracka
03-11-2004, 01:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of short-term luck in poker, and nowhere is that more evident than in the play of middle pairs (QQ-99).


[/ QUOTE ]
so what your saying is when I have a pocket pair that is QQ-99 and I am late in a tourney, I should push my stack and hope for a good outcome?
maybe I should quit poker because I thought there was more than just luck involved, but apparently I was mistaken.

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 02:03 AM
Salt,

Yup. It's all luck.

Cris

nixma
03-11-2004, 02:39 AM
I dunno... 4-handed, I'm gonna guess that my JJ is pretty good, but JJ is one of those hands that absolutely hates to see a flop, because there's going to be a Q, K or A on the flop well over half the time. If you open for a "standard" raise and get called, you may have a pretty problem when the flop puts one or more of those higher cards out there. Plus, if a standard raise is going to pot commit you, I think you just push preflop and give your opponents a tougher call and give yourself an easier way to play the hand. After all, JJ is too good to throw away.

In any event, given that you had been stealing plenty of pots, I think pushing is the right move here to represent another steal. It seems like the best way of inducing a mistake, and like I said, 4-handed I'm going to guess that my JJ is the boss by a wide margin. You just got unlucky.

William
03-11-2004, 07:22 AM
In any event, given that you had been stealing plenty of pots, I think pushing is the right move here to represent another steal. It seems like the best way of inducing a mistake


Ever hear the story of the little boy who shouted "wolf" one time too many?

So you think that because he has been stealing a lot, he's chances of taking the pot right there are good?
Funny, but I think just the opposite is going to happen.

William

William
03-11-2004, 07:26 AM
Yup. It's all luck.

Yup, for some it is.
But that's the reason we post here, to try to change that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

william

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 03:09 PM
William,

There's a big amount of short-term luck involved in poker -- for anyone -- and over the course of a single SNG or even a single evening or week, a couple of unlucky hands can negate a whole lot of good play very quickly. Middle pairs (QQ-99) on shallow money are a prime example.

In this case, Salt had ~2000, with the blinds at 75/150. If he's going to 3xBB open-raise, that's going to be a quarter of his stack out there. The AQ is almost certainly going to reraise him, and then what? Does he muck his JJ, in a four-handed game, and kiss off 25% of his stack? I wouldn't, and I think it'd be foolish to do so. Given that call any reraise anyway, the better move is to push all-in himself. The all-in raise gives him maximum equity for his short stack.

Were he at a more passive table, where it was more likely that his 3xBB pre-flop raise would be flat-called, then a stop-and-go move might worked. But from the tone of his post, I don't see this table as passive, and that negates the stop-and-go.

His other possibility was to limp -- surely you're not going to suggest that he should muck JJ in a four-handed game -- but in a $5.50 SNG, AQ would surely have raised, and probably enough to set him all-in. Then what? Fold the best hand and wait for a better opportunity? Sorry, but I just don't see that happening here.

I think Salt played the hand fine, and got outdrawn in a coin flip. That's going to happen. About half the time, actually. Ideally, you'd rather avoid coin flips at the bubble, but short-stacked and holding JJ, I think you have to take your chances. In this situation, he was too short-stacked for tricky post-flop maneuvering, and he just got the wrong side of the coin flip.

Cris

ThaSaltCracka
03-11-2004, 04:23 PM
hmmmm...
maybe I should have elaborated on the table a little. I know for a fact that I would have been called if I had raised 3x BB, I am not positive I might even have been reraised. This was a fairly loose table, I saw many calls with Kxs, Axs.
However I think, Cris, you may be right, and I think others may have said it as well, I was probably going to be re-raised all in by the AQ, thus I prob. have to call right? Although, what if AQ simply just calls, then I can push on the flop and taken it down(hopefully). So basically my point is.... if all my chips were going to go in anyways (atleast it seems that way to me), why not try the alternative of hopefully seing a flop first before doing it.

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 04:57 PM
Hiya Salt,

[ QUOTE ]
However I think, Cris, you may be right, and I think others may have said it as well, I was probably going to be re-raised all in by the AQ, thus I prob. have to call right? Although, what if AQ simply just calls, then I can push on the flop and taken it down(hopefully). So basically my point is ... if all my chips were going to go in anyways (atleast it seems that way to me), why not try the alternative of hopefully seing a flop first before doing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're talking about what Greg Raymer calls a stop-and-go move, I agree that this is often a great tactic with the middle pairs. That is, you make your standard open-raise, intending to move in on the flop regardless. What you're hoping for is a flop with no overcards, so Ax and Kx will fold. But even if the overcards do hit, you're going in anyway.

Why?

Let's say you'd open-raised for 450, leaving you only 1550, and you were called. An Ace hits the flop, and you fold. You're in the BB next hand, with only 1400 after posting. If that hand isn't playable, you're in the SB next, with only 1325 after posting. If the blinds escalate -- you didn't say how long til the next blind increase -- you're down to 1250 (only 6xBB) once the blinds pass you.

In short, if you fold to an Ace- or King-high flop, you're into all-in-or-fold territory from then on. And you might well not get a better opportunity than the one you have now with your JJ.

So, if you open-raise and are called pre-flop, you pretty much have to push it in on the flop, even if an Ace or King hits. Your opponent might be on a smaller pair, or he may be on an overcard that missed (e.g.: he's on KQ, flop is A-T-4), etc., and you can't just assume that you're beaten on an Ace- or King-high flop.

So the stop-and-go move doesn't really reduce your risk of ruin any, because you're planning to move in on the flop no matter what. What it does is give your opponent another chance to fold. That's where it's equity comes from.

In this particular situation, I don't think it'd have made much of a difference whether you moved in pre-flop, or did a stop-and-go. He might well have called you regardless, and often as not, opponents will call a stop-and-go with only overcards, hoping to catch at the turn or river.

And that's what I meant in my original response, when I said that the outcome here is, to a large extent, out of your control. With a middle pair vs. overcards, on shallow money, the chips are going in more often than not. I think you played the hand fine -- although the stop-and-go was another viable alternative -- but either way, I think you were going to have to survive a coin-flip showdown.

Cris

ThaSaltCracka
03-11-2004, 05:42 PM
I think if I had done the stop and go method he would have folded on the flop. I dunno, if he had lost he would have been below 1000, so he would have been hurting, however this is a $5 SnG, so more than likely that wouldn't have factored in his thinking /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Cris,
BTW thank you for explaing the sit-and-go move, I have heard people talking about it before and now I know what they are talking about.

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 05:47 PM
Hiya Salt,

[ QUOTE ]
BTW thank you for explaing the stop-and-go move, I have heard people talking about it before and now I know what they are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

cferejohn
03-11-2004, 09:17 PM
4 handed with just over 10x the BB left, I'll make a 'standard' raise to 450 or so, but I'm calling all-in like a shot if I'm reraised. JJ figures to be the best hand 4 handed the vast majority of the time. It's the 19th best hand out of 2652 possible. If you aren't happy taking a risk by getting all your chips in here with these blinds, umm, go play chess.

William
03-11-2004, 09:59 PM
obviously if people actually read my answer to salt, we wouldn't be waisting each others time with long tactical explanations.

[ QUOTE ]
Salt,

I would have bet 600 pre-flop, called and/or moved in if reraised.

On the flop with small cards, I would have moved in. This gives you a small protection against later overcards (if the others fold) but it also pays less if your hand is good at showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

William

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 10:36 PM
William,

[ QUOTE ]
obviously if people actually read my answer to salt, we wouldn't be waisting each others time with long tactical explanations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gosh, I wish I'd written something like this. Then all of the "Cris is so arrogant" posts might actually be justified.

Cris

William
03-11-2004, 11:01 PM
Cris,

You have a serious problem. If you are fighting with several posters, the chances are that it is your own fault and not that everybody is after you.
You must understand that starting a post with "I can't beat the low-limit fish" in a forum where most play at the level you call the low-limit fish level isn't going to be welcomed.

I play most of my poker online at tables where I sit with 600$, usually 4 at the same time, and when I play live games, I sit down with several thousands of $ in front of me. I talk about it sometimes in my posts, but I try not to give the impression that I am lowering myself to the level of the people who is going to read them.

I don't wish to criticize you, I just want to explain why I for example, can afford to post a mail from stars with my tournament results the same evening a SNG was going on, while it's going to take a while before you can do the same.

William

CrisBrown
03-11-2004, 11:13 PM
Hi William,

So there's a double standard. Period. It's not what I write, it's who I am. Okay.

Cris

William
03-11-2004, 11:18 PM
So there's a double standard. Period. It's not what I write, it's who I am. Okay.

NO, IT'S NOT.

Everybody thinks you are a nice lady, so it's what you write and especially how you write it.

No double standard!

William

ThaSaltCracka
03-12-2004, 12:24 AM
can't both you just fuckin stop pissing each other off?
I think everyone here is tired of it. I am not pointing a finger at one of you, I am pointing at both of you. [censored] STOP IT!!!!!!!!!
I am tired of reading these from both of you. Both of you grow up, you both are adults but most of the time you guys act like little kids.
Both of you have insights that are valuable, both of you say things people disagree with.
[censored] STOP BITCHING WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

William
03-12-2004, 12:33 AM
Salt,

this is grown up stuff, go back to sleep,
it's way past your bedtime /images/graemlins/grin.gif

CrisBrown
03-12-2004, 12:37 AM
Come to bed, dear, and let's stop fighting in public. *winks*

Actually, folks, William and I do like each other, and while we have our disagreements, I bear no ill will toward him. I learn a lot from him, and though he'll probably die before he'd admit it, I think he learns a little tiny bit from me. *giggles*

Peace to all. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

William
03-12-2004, 12:44 AM
LOL Cris,

Funny however that I was the last one involved in the discussion, so some should learn to read posts "chronologically" before sharing their comments on a subject they obviously don't understand.

And BTW, yes, I'll die before... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Love you anyway,
William

ThaSaltCracka
03-12-2004, 01:11 AM
isn't it like 5 in the morning in Denmark? You sleep right??? seriously you guys should calm down, but thats just the observation of a humble cracka... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

William
03-12-2004, 01:18 AM
It's 6 in the morning in denmark, but I can't go to sleep, the american fishes insist in throwing their money at me at the NL ring games /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ThaSaltCracka
03-12-2004, 01:21 AM
I thought there was a fishing limit..... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

William
03-12-2004, 01:23 AM
He he, no limit tonight, 4k and still counting /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ThaSaltCracka
03-12-2004, 01:37 AM
better be carefull the PS Fish and Wildlife dept. may force you to release some of those fish. They don't want to have to restock the lake.... /images/graemlins/cool.gif