View Full Version : Anybody else call this one...

02-08-2004, 09:14 PM
Hi all,

10+1 1-table SnG at Stars. We're still very early (blinds are 10/20) and I get dealt AQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the small blind. EP raises to 60 preflop, he gets 5 callers (including yours truly), so there's T360 in the pot. Flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, and it checks around to the button who puts in a pot sized bet.

After thinking it over, I decided to call having two overcards and the nut flush draw, and if I have to muck it on the turn, then I am still in good fighting shape with around T1100.

Results in white below:
<font color="white"> A spade did fall on the turn, and when I pushed all-in (stupid I later realized, as a check probably would have induced a bet...but I was so excited...) the guy who made the original bet says "you called that bet on a draw...I'll throw away this hand so I can skunk you later." I thought it was pretty funny. But he may have been right. Anyway, he finished 6th...I finished second and knocked him out when he bet all-in against my aces...oops!

Enough silliness...the original question...do you call here?


02-08-2004, 10:04 PM
In my experience, low limit PStars SnG's are becoming more and more weird (I've been there for a little more than a year) ... I've basically given up the $5, $10 in daytime and $20 evenings, for there seem to be no way to put the players on hands, and I'm prone to tilt when my big pocket pairs etc. are cracked third satellite in a row by someone committing their chips and sucking out with genuinely absurd hands.

That said, in your position I don't think I would feel safe if an Ace or a Queen fell on the turn. Which leaves you with 9 safe outs. What do you do if no spade fall, and your opponent bets another 360? Now you're getting almost the right pot odds (assuming he doesn't hold cards in your suit), but the majority of times you'll end up with 740 and a not that attractive chip position this early on.

I might tend to overdo the "tight early" strategy, but I don't really see any problems folding the AQs on the SB with an EP raiser and that many callers.


McMelchior (Johan)

02-08-2004, 11:01 PM
Hey triplc,

I would have made the same call as you did. I definitely feel comfortable playing with as little as 500-600 chips so even if you don't catch your spade and muck the hand you had plenty to play with. I say good call.


02-08-2004, 11:08 PM

I'm still in the learning process myself so take this for what it's worth, but I don't think I'd call on the flop here.

After calling preflop I definitely like this flop and would probably come over the top all in to the pot sized bet.

I ran a twodimes analysis and found that you're better than 45% to win against a pair of kings and worst case you're a 3:1 dog to a set of nines.

The set obviously is a concern but I think considering that A. the button could have limped behind with a very wide range of hands preflop and B. once it's checked to him a pot sized bet looks SO much like a steal, that I push and take my chances...

02-08-2004, 11:10 PM
You're definitely right...had an A or Q fell I would have had a decision on my hands...I guess I really was playing for the spade.

That said, I did see this as an opportunity to possible get some chips early. I've been playing super tight early and finding my way into a lot of 4th, 5th, and 6th place finishes recently because I'll get short stacked and either make a mistake on my short stack or get sucked out on.

I still do not like draws, but I just felt that in this case, there was a chance to get some early chips and also get the image of a slightly loose cannon (paid off in spades later on).

The reason I did post it, however, is that I wasn't totally comfortable with the play, results notwithstanding...


02-08-2004, 11:12 PM
My only reluctance there is that it is so early and I have nothing at this point. Why put all my chips at risk when I can see the turn for about 1/4 of my stack, super early in the game...

had this been later, and I'd had a better read on this guy, then I think I would push here...


02-08-2004, 11:13 PM
Thanks, Ace...

Good playing with you tonight...it was a tough SnG...third place guy didn't want to die...

See you at the tables again.


02-08-2004, 11:37 PM
I'm with you triplc, it was way to early to put all your chips in on a draw. Like I stated early, if you didn't catch your spade you had plenty to play with. In my opinion, putting all your chips in at that point would be the wrong decision, but again that's just my opinion.

It was nice playing at the same table and finishing 1(you) and 2(me). see you at the tables.

02-08-2004, 11:43 PM
Hiya CCC,

I think I'd muck here. Yes, you have two overs, plus the nut flush draw. But AKo is not an entirely unlikely button hand here, so your overcards might not be winners. And 99, 33, or 22 are very possible button hands in this kind of a pot, against which you're a 3:1 underdog, even with overs.

With a pot-sized bet, you're only getting 2:1 from the pot, not even enough overlay vs. a hand like T9o.

Now I'll read the results....

Glad to hear it worked out well for you. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


02-08-2004, 11:53 PM
I think this is mainly a difference in style, and I can't argue that it may not be better to fold than raise in this situation. That said I wonder about the positive value of calling...the majority of the time no spade will fall on the turn and then you're probably committed to calling at least a small bet (1/2 pot or less?) aren't you?

Maybe it's a leak in my game but if I have a strong draw I'd rather get my money in on the flop if I have to call a pot sized bet. Maybe the question is whether or not AQs is too dangerous to play preflop here? I generally do since people will waaaaay overcommit with weak aces that pair up in SnG's but obviously some others do not....

02-09-2004, 01:28 AM
The pot was being played 6 ways...I had a $50 call into a T270 pot...I'm going to take that stab with AQs every time.

I agree that calling with only a flush draw is probably not +EV if that's all I have, but I did have the overcards, and the draw was to the nut flush. A marginal play, I'll grant you...but I would definitely not push here this early...

Too risky for me at this stage of the game...


02-09-2004, 01:38 AM
In my experience, low limit PStars SnG's are becoming more and more weird

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I'm playing the $5 + $.50 SNGs at Stars lately and I love them. Yes, there's a few fish in each one, but usually once it gets down to the final four or five there's some remarkably good poker going on (in comparison to the buy-in).

02-09-2004, 08:50 AM
If I had 99, 33, 22 in this spot I would have gone all in on the flop rather than bet the pot and let someone draw out on me for less than their entire stack.

02-09-2004, 01:35 PM
The pot was being played 6 ways...I had a $50 call into a T270 pot...I'm going to take that stab with AQs every time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Preflop the call is fine. You have to think in terms of implied odds -- if you don't know what that means, reread the first few chapters of The Theory of Poker. Actually read that anyway.

At the early stages of a no-limit tournament you can call these raises preflop because the T50 you're calling is such a small fraction of the money available to be won. Your implied odds are something like 20-to-1 on that call, maybe even higher considering it's a six-way pot and you could conceivably triple through if you win the hand. AQ-suited will hit often enough for that to be correct.

On the flop, your call was terrible. Now you are not getting good implied odds, considering that your opponent will likely bet again on the turn if you miss. Checkraising allin on the flop would be okay; checkfolding would probably be better.

(The reason checkraising all-in is a good play is that much of the time your opponents will all fold.)