View Full Version : A tournament hand to discuss

B Dids
02-08-2004, 01:58 PM
Total number of players : 2
Seat 1: B_Dids (3920)
Seat 7: samo1 (4080)
samo1 posts small blind (150)
B_Dids posts big blind (300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to B_Dids [ K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
samo1 raises (450) to 600
B_Dids calls (300)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
B_Dids bets (300)
samo1 raises (600) to 600
B_Dids calls (300)

(Was this a bad call? pair of 4s, and the person I was heads up with had spent a lot of time trying to push people around with his stack)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
B_Dids checks.
samo1 bets (2880)
samo1 calls all-In.
B_Dids calls (2720)
B_Dids calls all-In.

(My thought here was that "I've got all their chips in the pot, a pair, and if I hit that flush, there's a very good chance I win. Plus they've made a bet like this a few times, trying to buy a pot. Is this a decent move I made?)

** Dealing River ** : [ 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]

Turns out the other guy had [ 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] so I was ahead in the hand.

I win, take him down the next hand. Tournament over.

So, was this a decent move on my part- or a bad risk that paid off?

02-08-2004, 03:29 PM
Hi B_Dids

I like this call in this case and would have raised all in myself given your characterization of your opponent. You had evidence that this player would make a play like this, plus you have a pair with a strong overcard (any K should be good, any 4) and a near nut flush draw. Of course, your opponent may have an A. I would consider that, consider my opponents history, and go after em!


02-09-2004, 09:40 AM
I am going to disagree here. Not too severely as a case can be made for what you did but disagree nonetheless.

Preflop...Basically dead even in chips and blinds are not a factor. You are holding a bad suited K. Fold

Post flop... you now have low pair and are betting and then calling a significant reraise...FOLD

Turn...You have low pair and a 4 flush and you are calling an all in bet on a draw...FOLD.

River...lucky card hits. You win.

IMO the only benefit that came out of the play in this hand is that your opponent played it worse than you. Sorry if this seems harsh. The answer to your original question is...

You got lucky. That's why they call it gambling. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

B Dids
02-09-2004, 10:36 AM
FWIW, I think you underestimating the read I had on my opponnent. Also, this is heads up, final two, do you really fold that king?

02-09-2004, 11:18 AM
We all like affirmation that any action was take is correct. I happen to disagree is all. I would expect you to defend your play. That is fine. As I said, a case can be made for what you did. Given the set of circumstances, it is my opinion that you overplayed your hand and overestimated your read on your opponent. My opinion only but I am being contrary today for some reason. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

02-09-2004, 11:35 AM
I am being contrary today for some reason.

I think that might be because you had to admit earlier that the King has been right all the way /images/graemlins/grin.gif

B Dids
02-09-2004, 11:47 AM
I understand you criticism of the post-flop play. I'm more interested in your suggestion that I fold the king. I'm an admitted notive, but shorted handed- shouldn't you play Kx?

02-09-2004, 11:52 AM
I gotta say it William. Damn this hurts... /images/graemlins/grin.gif


02-09-2004, 11:56 AM
I am going to disagree here with you StageMusic, regarding his preflop decision. Heads up, against a minimum raise, you have to defend your blind...maybe that means popping him back with a reraise if his read is, in fact, that good, but I don't think you can fold this here. If you are going to fold Kxs to any min raise...then I want you at my table. What hands would you defend with?

As for the post flop play, I'm not sure what I would have done on the flop. I've got a pair, which is often good enough heads up, but with an A on the board I'd be a little nervous...don't honestly know what I'd do there. I think it's 50/50...

You got lucky. That's why they call it gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was ahead in the hand the whole way...luck had nuttin to do with it /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

02-09-2004, 12:00 PM
As I said, pre flop a case can be made for the call. Given that this is Party (based upon chip count) and you don't mention the level but I will assume a 5 or 10 dollar SNG, I have no real problem with that. I have called with much less. Facing a minimal raise, a call isn't that bad an idea with a suited K. However, if you are asking if any Kx would do, the answer is no. Shorthanded is different than HU however.

02-09-2004, 12:08 PM
He was ahead in the hand the whole way...luck had nuttin to do with it

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to strenuously disagree with this. At the point where both players went all in, the poster had a pair of 4's. There is absolutely no way that a pair of 4's facing an all in bet should call on a draw to a 2nd nut flush. The fact that the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif hit does not take away from the fact that the poster could not possibly believe that he would be ahead at that point. That is an assumption that will cost you a lot of money in the long run. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

La Brujita
02-09-2004, 12:08 PM
I think it was a clear call pre flop and I may well call the all in here based on my read of the player. Low pair will often win the hand, the main worry is an ace on the board is often trouble with a preflop raise and a big bet.

IMO you are not too far of calling a minimum raise with just about any two cards (and certainly any two suited cards) as the blinds become big.

02-09-2004, 03:46 PM
There is absolutely no way that a pair of 4's facing an all in bet should call on a draw to a 2nd nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

and generalizations are always false... /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

This statement only strives to point out that you cannot make a blanket statement about this hand or any other...I'd like to hear a bit more about Dids' read, but the hand played out this way...

Opponent min raises, Dids puts him on a steal and calls with K4d. Let's say his read is that he has the best hand at this point (Dids' was that the read?). I have no problem at all with this play...I'd do the same or maybe reraise if I was feeling saucy.

Flop comes A74 with one diamond. If his read preflop was that his hand was best...then how does this change anything? He didn't read the opponent for an A or a pair, so the only card that beats him is a 7. So Dids bets on his fours. Opponent raises, which would likely cause me to fold, but Dids calls. This is behavior indicative of someone who is putting his opponent on a bluff and thinks he has the best hand...

A 2 of his flush suit falls. Now, his flush draw is better, and if his read was that his four was the best hand (and in heads up play if you catch a piece of the flop, that's not necessarily a bad assumption), then this card doesn't change things and it gives him the draw to the second nut flush (or the nut flush if you continue with the read that this guy doesn't have an A). When his opponent pushes in...well, I'm probably folding here, but this is a guy who has been pushing people around. So Dids calls...and it was the CORRECT play, according to FTOP. He had the best hand...so for you to say that there is absolutely no way that he can think he has the best hand, when he actually has the best hand...is especially ironic...don't you think?

I'm not necessarily defending Dids' play here (well, I sort of am...whoa, good English there), but I don't think you can read this post and say that the only way to play this hand is to fold it up. If I think I have the best hand post flop (which I don't believe is as remote as you think it is) then the 2 on the river wouldn't make me change that, and I'd call.


02-09-2004, 04:06 PM
I too would play this hand pre-flop.

Post flop, with the pair of 4s and flush draw, all-in bet, well...I think you had to be there. There are lots of times that any pair is good HU, but to me it's a "feel" play, and to feel it you've got to be the one playing it.

I certainly don't agree that it's a "must-fold." And since his read was correct, I'd have to say the play was correct.

02-09-2004, 04:23 PM
One question, mainly for Dids, (and CCC).

If you think you're ahead on the flop, what's the point in calling his raise, other than to induce a bluff on a later street, which is not very reasonable - because you have only a poor piece of the flop here?

If you're reading him as being on a bluff - push on the flop and make HIM make a decision, whether to call or not. You let him see another card, and then call his all-in. I really think your flush-draw doensn't mean much here, you called his turn all-in because you thought you're ahead. I must say this is risking too much, even if you have a decent read on him. True, You found out you were right, at the end, but why not finding it on your own terms, if you're really sure of it?

This guy could have 97o for all you know, and if a diamond doesn't hit on the river - you're out.

With his kind of play, I rather wait for a little better hand to trap him.

Only my opinion,


02-09-2004, 04:50 PM
This is a perfectly fair point, PrayingMantis, and I believe that my play would have been to fold on the flop raise. And putting him to a decision for all of his chips if you really think you have the best hand is another choice here. My point is simply that there are choices. Calling may not be the best choice here. Others have made (I believe) valid arguments for both folding and pushing in after the flop.

That said, once he has made the call on the flop, and the 2 of diamonds comes on the turn...I think it is a reasonable call of the all-in based upon your read in the heat of the moment at the table. That was my only issue with Stage's comment.

Just thought I'd present a possible defense. I'd like to hear back from Dids.


B Dids
02-09-2004, 05:46 PM
Yes. My read was that they were going for a steal and that I was ahead with my 4s. I hesitate to call this too much of a read, because I frankly don't think I'm good enough to do that yet. I've been pretty sucessfull at putting people on hands just based on their betting patterns, but still feel like I'm making more "educated guesses" than "reads".

La Brujita
02-09-2004, 05:53 PM
B Dids,

Don't sell yourself short on reads v. educated guesses. I would say online the majority of what I think of as "reads" are really my educated guesses based on previous play of hands and mathematics.

One thing that makes me smile a bit was when someone posts "I knew he had ..."

Occassionally it may be crystal clear, but the majority is you are just making your best guess.

02-09-2004, 06:10 PM
I didn't express myself very well but that is exactly what I am talking about. A "read" on an opponent does not, in my opinion, justify the call here. Particularly online. You may think you have it right but the cards just didn't justify putting it all on the line there.

And I still would have folded to the raise pre flop...has nothing to do with "read", just what I consider an easily dominated hand in the situation.