View Full Version : Fishy play early

Kurn, son of Mogh
01-27-2004, 12:04 PM
Every once in a while I make a semi-fishy play on the belief that I can get away cheap and still have enough chips to place. Here's one from earlier in the same 'Stars SNG as the TT hand.

Blinds are 15/30, 14 left, I'm in about 8th with 1450 after getting my AJo overcards, cracked by a slowplayed AKo no pair hand (fortunately we checked it doen on the turn & river).

I'm, in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG minraises to 60 folded to me and I call. (hint: this is not the fishy play)

Flop: A /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, intending to fold. UTG bets 60 into the 135 pot. I look at my stack and decide I can play just as well with 1330 as 1390 and call, knowing full well that I can pick up a flush draw on the turn and still be forced to fold if he decides to play strongly.(hint: this *is* the fishy play)

Turn: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Hello! hit the gutshot. Man, he's not gonna like this. I check, he bets 600, I checkraise all-in, he mulls it over for about half his time bank and calls.

What does he have? (I was treating him like he had AA) Did I really show those 60 chips I threw in on the flop no respect? What did my opponents think of me after this hand?

01-27-2004, 12:25 PM
I actually like making calls like the post-flop call (and occasionally like the pre-flop call, just to keep people honest), even when the immediate pot odds don't favor it. The reason being that I am likely to collect a big pot when it hits (there's a good example of this from TPFAP with Doyle Brunson and Stu Ungar, I believe, where Ungar calls a bet with a gutshot, hits it and takes Brunson down), and the small bet it costs me to give it a shot doesn't hurt me that much in the long run. When players minibet (or don't at least pot bet), and I have anything going at all, I will usually call, even when fishy.

I'm guessing A8h.


01-27-2004, 12:49 PM

I'm, in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG minraises to 60 folded to me and I call. (hint: this is not the fishy play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

01-27-2004, 12:52 PM
I think both plays are fine as long as they are done with correct stack sizes (for you and opponent). I don't always call the PF raise but 2 suited cards with some straight potential is a good time to do it. I also will make the flop call but it seems I never hit the perfect card!

Ken Poklitar

Kurn, son of Mogh
01-27-2004, 12:53 PM
7-2 pot odds and only one opponent post-flop. There are hands (and chip situations) where I'd fold in this situation, but not many. 2 suited cards that can make a str8 is definitely not one of them.

01-27-2004, 12:59 PM
I have to admit, I probably would have folded after the $60 bet on the flop. Perhaps I'm giving up too mutch in these situations. Since he raised pre flop I would put him on A x, or a small pair. Hopefully he wasn't making an early position steal attempt with 9 10?

01-27-2004, 01:02 PM
I meant his min raise.

Kurn, son of Mogh
01-27-2004, 02:01 PM
UTG shows A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

River was neither an A nor a 6, so I take it down.

01-27-2004, 02:07 PM
What does he have? (I was treating him like he had AA)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to take a shot at this. KK? He makes a minimum UTG raise, hoping for the re-raise, then the A on the flop scares him, so he puts a 60 chip toe in the water. When you only call, he decides the Kings are good, and bets 600 just in time to meet your gutshot.

I know it's probably going to be something much less fun, like A2 or K8, but it's a better story if it's KK. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

As for what your opponents thought of you afterwards, "Why that *#%&! lucky Klingon #&@%&*!"

01-27-2004, 09:41 PM
Okay so playing A6o UTG with a Miniraise then a small bet after I hit my hand is bad play?

I think playing A6o, raising with it and then only betting 60 after the hand hits deserves to get beat by a gut shot. There were plenty of times for the guy holding A6o to get out. The first being Preflop. The second with a decent bet on the flop. Correct me if I am wrong but would you even consider a call if he bet the pot?

The third is after you raised him all in with a possible straight on board.

Jason Strasser
01-28-2004, 03:01 AM
With all due respect, and I have a lot for the poster, this is a bad play in my opinion. I don't know about where you play, but on party, a minimum raise in EP is generally a monster. I fold preflop.

After the preflop call, I believe the line of thinking "I look at my stack and decide I can play just as well with 1330 as 1390 and call", is dangerous. In a SNG, with accelerated blind structures, I don't believe you can make this call, especially heads up. If he had KK-TT, or even AK-AQ, which are very plausible hands for a min raise in EP, you will not get paid off if you hit your gutshot--implied odds go out the window. You got very fortunate that you even got called with a 2-pair, as I may've laid down the hand when my "set-alarm" went off.

95s is an instant muck. As a tight-aggressive player in a SNG, every dollar that I leak is a dollar I won't get paid when I double up. If on every call you considered: "I will play the same with 1230 as with 1290," you are bound to get yourself in trouble.

Just my 2cents.

Kurn, son of Mogh
01-28-2004, 08:57 AM
would you even consider a call if he bet the pot?

I would've folded faster than the Red Sox in October. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Kurn, son of Mogh
01-28-2004, 09:06 AM
a minimum raise in EP is generally a monster.

That's precisely why I make this play. I have a greater probability of knowing what my opponent has than he has of knowing what I have (if there's a caller between us, I fold). If you read my post, my assumption is AA. It gets harder when the range of hands gets bigger, but if you can confidently put your opponent on a big pair, you can play a hand like 86s perfectly and trap the trapper.

01-28-2004, 09:11 AM

I'm, in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG minraises to 60 folded to me and I call. (hint: this is not the fishy play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I second that /images/graemlins/grin.gif

01-28-2004, 09:32 AM
I like this play - it's cheap enough to do (depending on stack) and can really help your reputation at a table as loose if you do flop a monster and show your cards.

I wouldn't be tempted to steal too often after showing them though until your moved to another table /images/graemlins/wink.gif

01-28-2004, 11:14 AM
I really like the play too. The implied odds are huge (if your read of him having a big hand is correct). I probably wouldn't call a bet of any larger for the river though, provided I don't improve (make a pair, or gain the flush draw).

Kurn, son of Mogh
01-28-2004, 11:32 AM
Even if I pick up the flush draw, I'm folding to the 600 turn bet with nothing that beats top set.

01-28-2004, 11:43 AM
Yes, the 600 turn bet is way too much to call for the flush, especially the non-nut flush, with tainted outs if he has a set.

01-28-2004, 03:57 PM

I think either UTG has KK/AA or A8o, your call at BB is a good move. If he has the big pair, as you said earlier, you are with a perfect "trap the trapper" hand. If it's his A8o , you're getting 3:1 on the pot here, while you're only a 6:4 dog. If you add the option to easily get rid of it later, and the possibility of drawing big, I think it's completely +EV.

And against a player who hits big on the flop, but slow-plays it (contrary to his "raise" with his "monster" PF), I think calling there his T60, for the huge implied odds of the straight, is maybe a bit marginal, but I would have probably done it too. It looks like the perfect opponent for such moves, and a good spot too.

And I agree with Jason, that on a higher buy-in SNG, with some more "sophisticated" opposition, mini-raise from UTG could probably mean KK/AA, but at the 10-20 SNGs people are capable of doing this with any suited ace, sometimes with any ace, and I've seen it done with baby pairs. So, though it is strange, I'm not surprised to see this.

(And an interesting thought might be: if it's a poor opponent, who can mini-raise from UTG with a wide range of hands, god knows why, caliing with 95d could be not such a good move, because later on you may find yourself hitting two-pairs against HIS sick straight or something. So, it could be a bit dangerous, now from the opposite perspective..)

Only my thoughts,