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Thythe
01-06-2004, 12:49 AM
I was playing surrender blackjack at a local casino which seemed to have some favorable rules for the player, possibly even positive EV long run (only for a specific bet though). Let me know what you think. The rules were split on any pair unlimited times, double on any two except blackjack, double after split, dealer hits on soft 17, blackjack pays 3 to 2. The interesting thing is in the surrender though. Normally one can surrender on any two cards and receive back half their bet. In this game though, a \$3.50 bet was returned \$2 upon surrendering, possibly making this a good game.

Ed Miller
01-06-2004, 04:38 AM
I haven't done the math, but my gut tells me that it is not enough to make the game +EV. BTW, I'm assuming that this game is at least a six deck game.

A lot of the value of surrender stems from the fact that it is more correct to surrender your stiffs when the count is high than when it is low. Since your bets are big when the count is high, and you surrender more hands then, surrender can be quite valuable. Surrender is not nearly as valuable an option to the basic strategy player.

BTW, I believe the alterations to BS should be:

Surrender
14, 15, 16, 17 against an A (including 88 and 77) - 13 is very close here probably slips to surrender land when the count gets mildly positive
14, 15, 16 against a 10 (including 88 and 77)
15, 16 against a 9 (not including 88) - 14 is almost exactly on the edge here.. any positive count and you should surrender
16 against an 8 (not including 88)

To be sure, it's a very nice perk, though. Actually, it may just add +0.5 to the value of the game (around what it would have to add to make it an even proposition with those rules).

irchans
01-06-2004, 09:56 AM
Interesting Question. I made some rough calculations assuming late surrender and an 8 deck shoe. I think that your surrender is worth about 1.1% without counting.

You should surrender

16 vs 8 ( 3% gain)
15 vs 9 ( 4% gain)
16 vs 9 ( 8% gain)
13 vs 10 ( 3% gain)
14 vs 10 ( 7% gain)
15 vs 10 (11% gain)
16 vs 10 (14% gain)
17 vs 10 (3.5% gain)
14 vs A ( 4% gain?)
15 vs A ( 8% gain?)
16 vs A (11% gain?)
17 vs A ( 9% gain?)

The total gain is about 1.1%. My guess is that this game is slightly in the player's favor. I estimate that basic strategy with your surrender has a 0.3% edge for the player.

I am not too sure about the numbers especially the ace upcard numbers. Someone should confirm these numbers before you believe them. I would suggest that you post this question to a blackjack site (Snyder (http://www.advantageplayer.com/blackjack/)) or rec.gambling.blackjack. Let us know if you a different answer elsewhere.

bernie
01-06-2004, 05:18 PM
surrender is a very nice additive that can really help profits. especially if they accompany it with the insurance bet. the ins. bet alone covers about 30% of a counters advantage. the cal-neva in reno had surrender but no insurance. god it was a great game. but that was ong ago.

you dont have to do the math, its been done.

wong had a chart in his pro(?) book i believe where you look up the # of decks, and rules available. add/subtract the EV and get a total. it is as easy as plugging in the numbers. he does all the work for ya. wong rocks! i also used that chart on my reno trips when i was playing. id compare it to wongs newsletter. though his newsletter also did that work for ya and would tell you what the EV was for tables scouted. well worth the \$10 i initially paid for it.

b

daryn
01-08-2004, 01:39 AM
check www.wizardofodds.com (http://www.wizardofodds.com), as far as i remember they do not advise surrendering with a 16 vs. dealer 8

Ed Miller
01-09-2004, 01:58 AM
check www.wizardofodds.com (http://www.wizardofodds.com), as far as i remember they do not advise surrendering with a 16 vs. dealer 8

If surrender returns only 50% of your bet, then at a count of zero, you should hit 16 against an 8, not surrender.

If surrender returns 57.1% of your bet (\$2 off a \$3.50 bet, which is what this guy was talking about) then you should surrender a 16 against an 8 at a count of zero.

Zeno
01-09-2004, 02:39 AM
For what's its worth the Flamingo on the strip was still offering surrender this last year (1/2 bet). Small signs were at each table - mostly ignored by 99% of the players. I do not know if it is offered at the green chip games though.

-Zeno

Rutager
01-09-2004, 03:09 AM
I used to play blackjack semi-regularly before I took up poker. I have the software and the tables necessary to figure out the correct basic strategy for this game and find the player's e.v. but don't have the time right now.

Besides, this sounds too good to be true. Are you sure there isn't another random rule to this game that you missed? Are you sure blackjacks pay 3:2? I wouldn't be surprised if there was some other crazy rule that hurt the odds of this game more than this surrender rule helped it. Just curious, what state is this game in (or country)?
If this game really were as good as it sounds, I would expect it to not be in a well-run casino.

-Rutager

Ed Miller
01-09-2004, 03:15 AM
Surrender is available in most of the shoe games on the strip, whether it is marked on the sign or not.

M.B.E.
01-09-2004, 07:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Normally one can surrender on any two cards and receive back half their bet. In this game though, a \$3.50 bet was returned \$2 upon surrendering, possibly making this a good game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most casinos would not allow you to bet anything but a multiple of \$1. I'm assuming that at this casino they did allow you to put a half-dollar on your bet, and if you surrender they just give you 25 cents more than you deserve.

Or to put it another way, they would return the half-dollar to you in full, and take one-half of the remainder of your bet.

Is that right?

For example, suppose your bet was \$35, and you surrendered. I'm assuming you'd get \$17.50 back, not \$20.

(But if you bet \$35.50, you'd get back \$18.)

The important question is, how do they deal with blackjack when your bet is not a round-dollar amount? You said that blackjacks pay 3-to-2, which on a \$3.50 bet would be a win of \$5.25. Since they don't have quarter-dollars on the table, they must pay you either \$5 or \$5.50. Which is it? If they're paying \$5.50 on a blackjack, it's great.

Thythe
01-10-2004, 04:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Besides, this sounds too good to be true. Are you sure there isn't another random rule to this game that you missed? Are you sure blackjacks pay 3:2? I wouldn't be surprised if there was some other crazy rule that hurt the odds of this game more than this surrender rule helped it. Just curious, what state is this game in (or country)?
If this game really were as good as it sounds, I would expect it to not be in a well-run casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

This casino is the largest in Minnesota, Mystic Lake Casino (not like casinos in Minnesota are that large). The game played exactly like regular blackjack. The only thing was that the casino had just introduced surrender games so that I guess all the kinks weren't completely worked out. My guess is that in the long run they would not pay out this way, but thats how it was currently running. It was an interesting question about what the blackjack paid out. the \$2.50 chip is very common there so a bet of \$3.50 or \$4.50 happens all the time and I'm not actually sure how they paid it out. The casino tends to err in the players favor (its not like theres many advantage players there in Minnesota), but I will definitely look into that the next time I'm there. Thanks for the responses.

Zeno
01-10-2004, 04:10 PM
Thanks for this valuable bit of info. I always assumed surrender was Not available unless stated so somewhere at the table or posted some place in the rules etc.

-Zeno