View Full Version : [20/2] C/R bluff? In a 22? Am I crazy?

09-18-2005, 07:32 PM
Literally every other hand was getting miniraised this SNG, but Villain hasn't raised a hand yet. I've limp/folded a couple times.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (Villain) (t780)
CO (t570)
Button (t1730)
SB (t370)
Hero (t755)
UTG (t1005)
UTG+1 (t760)
MP1 (t2030)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 (Villain)/ raises to t65</font>, CO calls t65, Button calls t65, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t35.

Flop: (t275) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, Villain checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t275) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets t175</font>, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>

09-18-2005, 07:35 PM
That hand was played fine until until u decided to raise...

09-18-2005, 07:38 PM
I fold this preflop. Even though it lays you great odds K7o is just too bad - give him credit for his first hand. I wouldnt consider the C/R either.

09-18-2005, 07:38 PM
What is Villain's range here?

09-18-2005, 07:42 PM
If I play against an unknown I assume almost any two untill proven otherwise. I guess this could be any pair, any ace, any two paint (if he's like most ppl in the 22s)

09-18-2005, 07:42 PM
Assuming deep stacks, I call a miniraise with any two in the BB. Even if you assume I need 2 pair to win the implied odds are ridiculous.

09-18-2005, 07:45 PM
ok, perhaps it's just a matter of opinions. Personally I hate throwing extra chips in the pot with garbage. I don't know if it's mathematically stupid.

09-18-2005, 07:47 PM
Would he check the flop with an ace?

09-18-2005, 07:51 PM
Some players would in the 22s, it's impossible to say the first time you play a guy. In most cases he wouldnt check with an ace, sure.

09-18-2005, 08:00 PM
Would he check the flop with an ace?

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that was what the guy with eights was thinking...anyway those plays dont even come into my mind when Im playing SNGs.

09-18-2005, 08:09 PM
Just fold pre-flop, for chrissake. You can't play your hand with any confidence if you hit TP. Talking yourself into calling with K7o here is a major leak.

Calling with a suited connector with pot odds would be one thing, calling with a hand like K7 is just asking for trouble.

09-18-2005, 08:15 PM
Just fold pre-flop, for chrissake. You can't play your hand with any confidence if you hit TP. Talking yourself into calling with K7o here is a major leak.

Calling with a suited connector with pot odds would be one thing, calling with a hand like K7 and THEN CHECKRAISING THE TURN WITH NOTHING is just asking for trouble.

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Matt R.
09-18-2005, 08:19 PM
Calling preflop is really borderline IMO. You can get away with it sometimes with a hand like K7o since you're getting such great odds. But, I think being in the worst position post-flop negates this quite a bit -- and since it's multi-way, you'll probably need 2-pair or better to take it down usually.

Anyway, as far as the check/raise bluff is concerned, I think it is way too risky. If you had a lot more chips I don't mind it, but you're risking &gt;1/2 your stack in the hope that villain is making a bet into a 4 way pot with a weak hand, or at least one that he's willing to let go of. I think he has a 10 here fairly often, so unless he's overaggressive and you are pretty sure he's doing this with crap, I would just fold and move on to the next hand. And even if he IS betting with crap a lot, I'd still fold quite a bit as you're risking so much of an otherwise healthy stack on a bluff.

09-18-2005, 09:11 PM
Patience, Grasshopper. You are only at Level 2 with plenty of chips left. The checkraise-bluff can wait until you are desperate or headsup.

09-18-2005, 09:16 PM
What was your plan in this pot? Call with nothing preflop and then represent a bluff?

Edit: You can ignore this post if you wish, I see you've taken enough stick already.


09-18-2005, 09:36 PM
I posted this fully expecting to get roasted. Not saying I'm trolling, just that I find I learn the most when I'm arguing.

The plan was to check most non-two pair or better flops, and see what happens after that (I'm perfectly happy to dump top pair to a reasonable bet, against another minibet I'll likely call down and find out he has 33). These opponents so far have been atrocious players and I was single-tabling at the time, so I wasn't that worried about getting outplayed postflop. I don't use the "Fold to any bet" button, otherwise I wouldn't have had the time to change my mind and uncheck it when the action got back to me on the turn. I didn't decide to do it until the moment I did it.

My reasoning with the check raise was thus:

-Preflop raiser would bet the flop with a ten, flush draw, or A having led preflop
-If he's smart enough to check a pocket pair on the flop, he's also probably smart enough to fold it if I represent a ten by check-raising

If anyone else had bet, if the bet came on the flop, or if there was anyone else left to act after me, I would have folded without hesitation. The circumstances just seemed perfect in this specific case.

So, is the problem that there is something wrong with my analaysis, or am I just overconfident applying a read like this to complete strangers in a 22?

Matt R.
09-18-2005, 09:45 PM
I think it's a risk/reward issue. Sure, there will be a lot of times where he will dump his hand thinking you have a 10. The issue is that you're risking a very healthy stack to pull this off, and if it doesn't work you're crippled. Go for it when you are risking &lt;1/4 of your chips, or are desperate in chips and need to make a play at a big pot. Not when you have plenty of room to still play if you just fold.

09-18-2005, 09:50 PM
That hand was played fine until until u decided to raise...

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What?? What flop is the hero hoping to get? 77x, KK7, K7x. That's it, anything with a King could be potential disaster (especially with 3 callers).

Do yourself a favor and don't call this crap. Don't throw away 8% of your chips on this crap.