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TStoneMBD
08-30-2005, 10:25 AM
Inspired by the star trader seminar thread.

Robert Kiyosaki is having a seminar tour which I believe is mid-way at this point. There is a weekend seminar expo in NYC October 22-23 and I believe I will be attending. It's only like $125 for weekend passes to all seminars for ClassB tickets and includes 70 seminars to choose from over a 22 hour period.

So what is your guys take on this seminar? Waste of time, don't bother? Probably really good? They just want to sell me some pyramid scheme?

If anyone else is going to be going to this event and wants to meet up let me know. Also, let me know in advance if there is any interest in me writing a trip report on the expo along with any interesting things I learned so I can take notes.

http://richdad.com/

Paluka
08-30-2005, 10:32 AM
I think the whole "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" thing is completely retarded. That book and "The Millionaire Next Door" are basically both handbooks on how to live a miserable life but die with some money in the bank.

08-30-2005, 10:40 AM
If i'm not mistaken isn't RDPD mostly about creating passive income?

Paluka
08-30-2005, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If i'm not mistaken isn't RDPD mostly about creating passive income?

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit to both a) having skimmed it b)not having looked at it at all in a long time. I just recall the whole thing being pretty bad.

TStoneMBD
08-30-2005, 11:00 AM
paluka i am not familiar with millionaire next door or what the book stands for, but i did a quick search on the book and one of the lessons it teaches is to live well below your means. i really dont think that is something that kiyosaki has taught. maybe you are tying the two writers together? i read the entire series of richdad several years ago, excluding the advisor series. i can see why you say that richdad teaches you to live miserable lives, but iirc, kiyosaki has said in one of his books that many millionaires have gotten there by being stingy all their lives. rk then goes on to say that nobody likes a stingy millionaire. the goal of passive income is to make enough money to do whatever you want in life, not to always live below your means.

also yes, the entire richdad series is about learning how to create passive income and reading financial statements.

Deathbear
08-30-2005, 01:03 PM
You might find this interesting. I personally haven't read any of Kiyosaki's books but I'm very hesitant since he is involved in a pyramid scheme (Quixtar) that one of my co-workers is involved in.

http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

1800GAMBLER
08-30-2005, 01:33 PM
Try to list things this book has taught you. I was stupid enough to buy 3 out of the series due to amazon reviews and hated them all. It's a nice story telling self help motivation book.

TStoneMBD
08-30-2005, 01:41 PM
ive actually read that report on kiyosaki by john reed and if its all true then it doesnt make kiyosaki look too good. that of course doesnt mean that kiyosaki doesnt know how to invest in real estate, or how to teach others to.

i am aware that kiyosaki is involved in multi-level marketing. in some of his books he speaks about how MLM is a very profitable passive income field and how despite the fact many of these MLM companies are just pyramid schemes, many of them are legitimate and can produce wealth. however, i have never, ever seen kiyosaki mention any specific MLM companies he is involved with nor have i seen him try to sell any MLM startups to any of the public. this makes his MLM endeavours appear entirely legitimate.

did kiyosaki lie about his childhood? probably. does that mean he isnt a smart investor? not necessarily. all i know is that i read his books several years ago and those books not only taught me a tremendous deal about real estate and passive income, i actually enjoyed reading them because he is an entertaining writer. i still value alot of what ive read in those kiyosaki books in high regard because the information i have absorbed from those books have yet to be disproved in anyway, at least in my eyes.

also, who is john t reed? is he a respected author of some sort? all i know about him is that his website looks like this, (http://johnreed.com) while robert kiyosakis website looks like this. (http://richdad.com)

BarkingMad
08-30-2005, 03:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
also, who is john t reed? is he a respected author of some sort? all i know about him is that his website looks like this, while robert kiyosakis website looks like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Respected" is subjective. I can tell you that I respect his work, that he runs a successful self publishing business, and that he has provided the details of his real estate investment experience on his site. I have read books from both authors. Specifically, from Reed - Fixers, Deals that make sense, Aggressive tax avoidance for real estate investors, How to Buy Real Estate for at Least 20% Below Market Value Vol 1&2, and Fundamentals of Real Estate Finance.

From Kiyosaki - Rich dad poor dad, Cashflow quadrant, and ABC's of Real Estate Investing.

I'm a small time RE investor (I own two duplexes in addition to my house), and I trade stocks short term (with mixed results), so I actually have used some of the information in these books (well... Reed's books) and I can tell you from experience that the difference in the appearance of their websites mirrors the differences of their material. Specifically, Kiyosaki is 95% fluff and 5% substance, John Reed is 95% substance and 5% fluff.

By fluff, I mean the pep rally, motivational BS that is designed to get you excited about "getting on the fast track to wealth". This is what Kiyosaki is all about. He talks about real estate investing, using OPM to build wealth, and why you should run & track your personal finances like a business, but he gives virtually zero nuts and bolts information on the subject matter.

In contrast, John Reed is all about nuts and bolts how to. He writes with the assumption that the reader has already decided to take steps to increase their wealth, and focuses on specifics. Want to buy property for at least 20% below market? His book talks specifics, from Probate to IRS auctions, you get detailed info that actually tells you how to do it. Rather than a pep rally, he gives pro's and con's for most of the things he writes about.

My .02

TStoneMBD
08-30-2005, 04:02 PM
youre right in that these books are self-help motivational books. the information presented has been directed at the financially clueless. however, i think that is the case with most real estate books. from my perspective, real estate investing really isnt that hard. its about understanding numbers and finding deals. of course there are important aspects such as appreciation assessment, housing costs, mortgages among other things, but kiyosaki has certainly touched on those areas, maybe not at advanced levels however.

if i were to read a robert kiyosaki type book now, i probably wouldnt get that much out of it other than perhaps some motivation. ive learned alot more about finances then when i first read the book, and you yourself probably know much more than i do, which is probably why you didnt feel you got much about of the series.

i read these books before i understood what ev is, and robert kiyosaki explains how to calculate ev for the real estate market the way that david sklanksy explains ev for the poker world. when i first read TOP the book opened many doors of learning for me. now i am at a point in poker that when i open up TOP i am kind of like "so?"

its hard for me to explain what information i have absorbed in those books, but the most informative book that i have read from the kiyosaki series is cashflow quadrant. that book is fantastic and thinking about it makes me want to read it again. the first book in the series, rich dad poor dad is exactly like another book (i believe its retire young, retire rich) in that both books just talk about kiyosakis childhood lessons and dont really get into true number/knowledge crunching.

off the top of my head, here are some things i learned from the richdad series:

how to leverage
how to arrange creative financing
how to defer taxes through real estate
the power of compounding interest
understanding of what positive cash flow is an how to earn it

i really dont like the idea of making a list of things ive learned because i feel that it limits the books. ive absorbed alot of information from the series beyond what i mentioned. dont get me wrong, im not trying to say that these books are great. there are certainly books out there with more substance. however, they have helped me a good deal.

TStoneMBD
08-30-2005, 04:08 PM
im very interested that youve said such good things about john t reed. i assume you recommend that i read his books? which one should i start with?

DesertCat
08-31-2005, 02:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the whole "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" thing is completely retarded. That book and "The Millionaire Next Door" are basically both handbooks on how to live a miserable life but die with some money in the bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a poor interpretation of TMND as well. The only way to go from poverty, or middle class, to wealth, is to spend less than you make. It's a simple law, and the basis of TMND.

Now, you may not want to live as cheaply as some of the millionaires featured in TMND, but through out your life if you want to build wealth you will need to make important choices.

I have a friend who's live-time earnings are well in excess of $5M. He's close to filing personal bankruptcy because his living standards grew with his income, but when his income declined, he was unable to lower his living standards. If he had found a way to live on a mere $250,000 a year, he'd still be rich today.

The key lesson from TMND is to save money. Anyone at practically any income level can do it. As your income grows, try to hold back on buying more things, instead try to save more money. Increase your living standards carefully and wisely. You'll find the freedom having money in the bank much more enriching than a few extra toys.

guardianx
08-31-2005, 11:12 AM
the whole richdad crap is a scam because all he is telling u is common /basic knowledge. and cashflow 101 game is super retarded. I went to one of the cashflow community game jus to check it out. and it was infested with people who doesnt know how to manage money doesnt have money and speak like they are going to be the next millionair lol.

eastbay
08-31-2005, 11:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
the most informative book that i have read from the kiyosaki series is cashflow quadrant.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole "cashflow quadrant" thing just sort of exposes Kiyosaki as being a hype machine with no redeeming value.

Why does he construct a "quadrant" to organize these types of income? There's nothing gained by having a "quadrant" diagram. It just sounds fancy and makes cool figures and is a catchy sounding phrase.

I wouldn't give this joker dime one. I don't understand how his books became popular at all.

eastbay

DesertCat
08-31-2005, 11:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]

both handbooks on how to live a miserable life but die with some money in the bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, and one more thing. After I read TMND, I told my friend about it. At the time he still had the huge house, ferrari, range rover, mercedes, and golf club membership. He was constantly eating out at the best restaurants and traveling (first class all the way), dropping twenty grand every weekend trip to Vegas.

He laughed, and gave almost exactly the same response as you, "it sounds like how to live a miserable life". He now lives in a studio apartment.

guardianx
08-31-2005, 11:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the most informative book that i have read from the kiyosaki series is cashflow quadrant.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole "cashflow quadrant" thing just sort of exposes Kiyosaki as being a hype machine with no redeeming value.

Why does he construct a "quadrant" to organize these types of income? There's nothing gained by having a "quadrant" diagram. It just sounds fancy and makes cool figures and is a catchy sounding phrase.

I wouldn't give this joker dime one. I don't understand how his books became popular at all.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]
well said well said.....
this joker got fat from the retarded people who praise him.
if u dont believe me goto one of the cash flow community they praise him like a god.

bob2007
08-31-2005, 01:45 PM
First book was good, the next ones were repetitive.

The most important thing I learned (I was initially studying accounting): an asset could be a liability.

An asset in accounting like a house, could be a liability according to RK if it were not making you any money.

TStoneMBD
08-31-2005, 01:57 PM
RK says that any expenses you pay or any item you own that is depreciating are liabilities and anything that nets you money is an asset.

according to him, a house that you live in is a liability, or more accurately the mortgage is. bankers and accountants call a house an asset. in a way, a house really is an asset because you lose less money then you would have had you rented living quarters instead.

he actually makes it seem to his readers that owning your own home is a bad idea. the closest in his books that he has come to rectifying what hes said about this is that there is good debt and bad debt. good debt makes you money and bad debt makes you lose money. owning a home is good debt for the most part. hes never said that.

Paluka
08-31-2005, 02:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
RK says that any expenses you pay or any item you own that is depreciating are liabilities and anything that nets you money is an asset.

according to him, a house that you live in is a liability, or more accurately the mortgage is. bankers and accountants call a house an asset. in a way, a house really is an asset because you lose less money then you would have had you rented living quarters instead.

he actually makes it seem to his readers that owning your own home is a bad idea. the closest in his books that he has come to rectifying what hes said about this is that there is good debt and bad debt. good debt makes you money and bad debt makes you lose money. owning a home is good debt for the most part. hes never said that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seriously is the most boring, uninteresting topic there is. How do you guys make it through one of these books?

BarkingMad
08-31-2005, 05:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
which one should i start with?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends where you are at and what you want to do. If you already own investment RE the tax avoidance book is a good starting point. If you want to get started in RE investing then the how to buy for 20% below market books are good, as well as the deals that make sense book.

Another thought, since this is in the Stock Market thread catagory. Kiyosaki's thoughts on the financial markets are even more devoid of useful info than his real estate advice, IMO.

If you're getting started in RE investing and have good income but not a great net worth (and you're single or are with a spouse that can handle it), a great way to get started is to become a serial owner occupant. I don't think Iv'e even seen Reed write about this. Buy a multifamily property using owner occupied financing, move in and live there for a year (to satisfy the morgage co. requirement) then repeat the process until you have accumulated several properties. You obviously have to be willing to landlord to do this.

Sniper
09-01-2005, 04:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Robert Kiyosaki is having a seminar tour which I believe is mid-way at this point. There is a weekend seminar expo in NYC October 22-23 and I believe I will be attending. It's only like $125 for weekend passes to all seminars for ClassB tickets and includes 70 seminars to choose from over a 22 hour period.

[/ QUOTE ]

This Real Estate Wealth expo was setup thru the learning annex, you can pick up tickets for $99, here...
http://www.learningannex.com/default.taf?sctn=A1&_function=detail&cnum=NY05EX&c at=

TGoldman
09-01-2005, 06:07 PM
Here's an excerpt from one of Kiyosaki's books, "Rich Dad's Who Took my Money? Why Slow Investors Lose and Fast Money Wins!" that is IMO an example of classic Kiyosaki. What he says seems to make sense and sounds good, but itís really just meaningless nonsense.

[ QUOTE ]
Words of Wisdom from a Gambler

"Don't count your money while you're sitting at the table." Those are priceless words of wisdom followed by professional gamblers. Along those lines, having your money sitting in a standard retirement plan violates three very important rules that professional gamblers and investors follow. They are:

1. As long as your money is on the table, it is not your money. As long as your money is in the game, the money belongs to the game, not you.

2. The game is more important than counting money. While gambling in Las Vegas I was winning the game of craps as long as I was focusing on the game. The moment I began to win, I took my mind off the game and began counting my money. When I was up $3,000 money became more important than the game. This is one of the reasons I lost. Counting money became more important than the game.

3. The object of the game is to get your money off the table and still remain in the game. A professional gambler or professional investor ultimately wants to play the game with OPM, other people's money. That is the object of the game. The moment I left all my money on the table, I lost sight of the object of the game.

A professional gambler wants to be playing the game with house money as soon as possible. While in Las Vegas, if I had put my money back in my pocket and only played with my winnings that would have been an example of playing with house money. The moment I began betting everything, I lost the game because I lost sight of my goal, which is to stay in the game but to play with other people's money... not my own money.

[/ QUOTE ]

eastbay
09-01-2005, 11:58 PM
Wow, that is truly pathetic. It really goes to show how senseless the book market is, that this guy's books are front and center in every bookstore in America.

eastbay

Sniper
09-02-2005, 12:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that is truly pathetic. It really goes to show how senseless the book market is, that this guy's books are front and center in every bookstore in America.


[/ QUOTE ]

Qouted out of context, this may seem strange to you, but his concept is sound... play with "Other People's Money", not the money you need to live on!

Its also worth noting that when he is talking about "gambling" (as in mortgaging your house and putting all your life savings on the spin of a roulette wheel), he's not talking about grinding out +EV at the poker table.

Rich Dad Poor Dad, should be required reading in high school.

eastbay
09-02-2005, 12:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, that is truly pathetic. It really goes to show how senseless the book market is, that this guy's books are front and center in every bookstore in America.


[/ QUOTE ]

Qouted out of context, this may seem strange to you, but his concept is sound... play with "Other People's Money", not the money you need to live on!

Its also worth noting that when he is talking about "gambling" (as in mortgaging your house and putting all your life savings on the spin of a roulette wheel), he's not talking about grinding out +EV at the poker table.

Rich Dad Poor Dad, should be required reading in high school.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but I've read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and it is confused, rambling, and 99% pointless tripe.

"The game is more important than counting money. While gambling in Las Vegas I was winning the game of craps as long as I was focusing on the game. The moment I began to win, I took my mind off the game and began counting my money. When I was up $3,000 money became more important than the game. This is one of the reasons I lost. Counting money became more important than the game."

If that is quality personal finance advice to you, you are in big trouble.

eastbay

Sniper
09-02-2005, 01:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If that is quality personal finance advice to you, you are in big trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

His point is... he got himself in trouble by thinking, wow I'm up 3 grand, if I just play some more I'll walk outa here a millionaire... instead of saying, wow I got real lucky, lets go home before my luck runs out.

In other words, pushing your luck in a -EV situation is bad, don't delude yourself just because you are on a +variance run.

What exactly do you find wrong with that advice?

eastbay
09-02-2005, 01:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If that is quality personal finance advice to you, you are in big trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

His point is... he got himself in trouble by thinking, wow I'm up 3 grand, if I just play some more I'll walk outa here a millionaire... instead of saying, wow I got real lucky, lets go home before my luck runs out.

In other words, pushing your luck in a -EV situation is bad, don't delude yourself just because you are on a +variance run.

What exactly do you find wrong with that advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, that's not what he said. What he said is that his concentration was helping him win the game of craps, but when his concentration faltered due to his money counting, he started to lose.

I don't think I have to explain to you why this attempted analogy is atrocious.

I THINK his point was that it's better to focus on process than results. Ok, fine, but his exposition trying to make that point is just plain terrible. Counting money during a craps game is just a stupid way to try to make that point, if that's even the point he was trying to make.

That we don't even agree on what his point was is revealing.

eastbay

TGoldman
09-02-2005, 01:45 AM
I chose that quote because 2+2 is composed of many professional and semi-professional gamblers. Taken within context of the entire chapter, Kiyosaki was trying to relate his little experience in Las Vegas to the real estate industry. He was trying to draw an analogy between gambling with "house money" to using bank's money in the form of a mortgage in order to leverage investments. Using leverage is good advice as long as the money is put towards a good investment, but his analogy to playing with house money in Las Vegas is way off base. In defence of Robert T. Kiyosaki, his books are rather enjoyable and easy to read. Although I'm critical of him, I obviously have read his books to be able to quote from them. Remember to please take what he writes with a healthy dose of skepticism (As you should any self proclaimed personal finanace guru).

TStoneMBD
09-02-2005, 02:30 AM
i actually remembering reading that paragraph tgoldman and i remember thinking how absurd and flawed kiyosakis thinking is there. this was even before i was introduced to gambling and poker. the guy isnt a craps player, hes a real estate investor. hes also not a logician. i think hes entitled to make logical mistakes on activities outside of real estate when writing books. i just dont understand why he didnt have an editor, or an intelligent reader to point out how dumb that statement was.