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curtains
07-23-2005, 11:55 PM
If all your opponents started the tournament with 995 and you began with 1045, how many points would you expect your ROI to go up?

nate_king1
07-23-2005, 11:56 PM
+0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000

ROI is constantly changing!Wouldn't effect your ROI unless your a total fish.

runner4life7
07-23-2005, 11:57 PM
i dont like you, you made me scroll over to the side, and i think it would raise it about .1%

ClaytonN
07-24-2005, 12:04 AM
I would have to say easily less than 1%. The only real benefit out of having this amount of chips would not be having 50 more chips than the opposition, but having 50 chips remaining should you be unfortunate and double someone else up, and then come back to finish ITM.

fluorescenthippo
07-24-2005, 12:05 AM
i think this is why curtains ROI is so high. he keeps an extra 50 chip in his pocket

bjb23
07-24-2005, 12:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The only real benefit out of having this amount of chips would not be having 50 more chips than the opposition, but having 50 chips remaining should you be unfortunate and double someone else up, and then come back to finish ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree here. 50 more chips is 50 more chips regardless of how it helps the player. maybe it becomes 100 chips down the road through a double up, or maybe it just serves as a buffer from the blinds until the player picks up a hand. truly these instances have more value than the times when the player doubles someone else up (should be much less likely than the first two examples) and then goes on to finish in the money from 50 chips (even less likely).

i agree though, that the increase in roi would be quite negligible... probably in the tenth of a percent range... this would of course depend on the player's style to some degree as well.

do you have an answer curtains??

45suited
07-24-2005, 12:29 AM
Curtains, that's really weird that you made this post. The other day after getting into a discussion with Durron regarding a hand, I got to thinking about another similar question: Would I take less chips if I could have a corresponding discount in the buy-in?

Obviously this is all ICM related. I think that I would do better (\$ wise) buying in at a discount for less chips than I would paying a premium for more chips, though I think that most posters would take the opposite approach.

07-24-2005, 12:29 AM
This is a theoretical question, and I am sure we could sit here and argue over the correct anwser in math for hours. However I believe it is very safe to say that in reality, there is a 0% ROI change due to the 5% increase in stack size.

This is similar to asking "If I win the first hand, and I gain 45 chips, do my chances of winning the SNG get higher?"

Nick B.
07-24-2005, 12:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]

This is similar to asking "If I win the first hand, and I gain 45 chips, do my chances of winning the SNG get higher?"

[/ QUOTE ]
And the answer to this question is yes.

Nick B.
07-24-2005, 12:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]

If all your opponents started the tournament with 995 and you began with 1045, how many points would you expect your ROI to go up?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that varies greatly by how good the player is. For a breakeven player it probably won't matter, but for somebody with a 20% ROI it would probably be much more significant.

07-24-2005, 12:39 AM
Theoretically the anwser is yes.

In reality the anwser is no.

ClaytonN
07-24-2005, 12:43 AM
Hopefully the 2+2 reader has already established that point, but thanks for pointing that out.

If I had to guess, the usefullness of the additional 50 chips probably follows an S-curve trend.

By the same token, you could say that the aid in ROI also depends on the level. IE 50 chips may help more in 55's than 215's.

Voltron87
07-24-2005, 12:43 AM
.2-.3%

i think people are forgetting that when you double up its like have 90 chips.

ClaytonN
07-24-2005, 12:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Theoretically the anwser is yes.

In reality the anwser is no.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so dumb, no offense.

If you played 1 million SNG's starting with 1000 chips, and then 1 million SNG's starting with 1045, the 1 million with 1045 chips would have a higher ROI, WITHOUT QUESTION. The mathematical and theoretical answer must be recognized, because you need to approach your winnings long term.

This is like me giving you 10 quarters and a dime every day for 20 years. If you threw away that dime every day, thinking "I don't need it, it's only a dime, in the real world this is nothing", but 20 years later accounts for a shatloud of dimes.

curtains
07-24-2005, 12:48 AM
Well it definitely means something, the question is how much does it mean. I really don't know the answer, but Im curious what people think.

Daliman
07-24-2005, 12:51 AM
You would have essentially 5% more chips than your opponents, therefore, your roi would go approximately 5% higher(or lower, if negative).

Oops, not lower, duh. But 5 % better. I'll explain here; I knda already did in response to nick B.

Usually, you think only in terms of multiplying vs the ROI, but that doesn't work here. A player with a 0% ROI + 5% isn;t going to cancel out because he is at 0%; it will be almost an exact 5% roi jump, because each time he buys in for 215, he averages getting 215 back, thus the 0% roi. Give him a 5% edge in chips, and he wins 5% more than he did before, which would be 226.75,(using straight percentages; obviously it should be a bit higher, as he is getting more than his "fair share" even at 0% ROI.)

FWIW, the actual ICM difference is approximately 4.6%

Easy one.

curtains
07-24-2005, 12:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You would have essentially 5% more chips than your opponents, therefore, your roi would go approximately 5% higher(or lower, if negative).

Easy one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That answer must completely wrong Dali. Ok actually I have no idea.

Daliman
07-24-2005, 12:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If all your opponents started the tournament with 995 and you began with 1045, how many points would you expect your ROI to go up?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that varies greatly by how good the player is. For a breakeven player it probably won't matter, but for somebody with a 20% ROI it would probably be much more significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. A breakeven player is winning \$215 per tourney. Improving his earn by 5% means he is now winning about \$10.75 more per tourney. A 20% roi player will be making about \$255 per tourney, and 5% more would be 12.75 more, so only about a \$2 difference between them.

45suited
07-24-2005, 12:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You would have essentially 5% more chips than your opponents, therefore, your roi would go approximately 5% higher(or lower, if negative).

Easy one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my initial thought before I remembered that the extra 50 chips is only .5% of the total pool of chips.

07-24-2005, 01:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you played 1 million SNG's starting with 1000 chips, and then 1 million SNG's starting with 1045, the 1 million with 1045 chips would have a higher ROI, WITHOUT QUESTION. The mathematical and theoretical answer must be recognized, because you need to approach your winnings long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I have already pointed out, we could sit here and argue the mathematical stand point of this for days. There is no doubt that there is an edge, but the size of this edge is the question.

Sure, over one million sngs, even a slight edge will show up as a big edge. There is no doubt you have a small edge in this situation over a LARGE sample size such as 1 million games, but when I first read this post I was under the assumption that he meant a single game, in which case there is a small, but close to no increase in ROI.

curtains
07-24-2005, 01:13 AM
btw to those who said it means nothing or next to nothing. This basically means if its a 4 way pot with 60 chips in the middle, and you somehow knew you could steal the pot 80-90% of the time with a potsized bet, thered really be no reason to since it wont effect your results!

Daliman
07-24-2005, 01:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You would have essentially 5% more chips than your opponents, therefore, your roi would go approximately 5% higher(or lower, if negative).

Easy one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my initial thought before I remembered that the extra 50 chips is only .5% of the total pool of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter. Your ROI is figured on a per player game basis, not per 10 players. Put another way, in ICM, doing this puts the 1045 stack at a .1041 EV, which would mean in a \$100 SNG, he would now theoretically make \$104.10; all the other players are now at a .995 EV, meaning they will stand to get back \$99.50 each. the REAL question, is where is the other 40 cents of EV?!? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I bet curtains took it. See, this is why he's crushing lately. He is making a killing on EV conversion rates. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Daliman
07-24-2005, 01:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]

btw to those who said it means nothing or next to nothing. This basically means if its a 4 way pot with 60 chips in the middle, and you somehow knew you could steal the pot 80-90% of the time with a potsized bet, thered really be no reason to since it wont effect your results!

[/ QUOTE ]

For a chess god, you sure don't know proper word usage

45suited
07-24-2005, 01:15 AM
Weakling, I think you're underestimating the advantage that you would have with 50 extra chips. Not huge, but not so small that it would take 1 million games to show up either. If 50 chips were nothing, then why not limp 3 times every game in level one with speculative hands like suited connectors? The fact that most players don't advocate this shows that 50 chips are not entirely meaningless.

curtains
07-24-2005, 01:16 AM
Im on bad run Dali, finally my luck has run it's course. It'll be back soon though....

curtains
07-24-2005, 01:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

btw to those who said it means nothing or next to nothing. This basically means if its a 4 way pot with 60 chips in the middle, and you somehow knew you could steal the pot 80-90% of the time with a potsized bet, thered really be no reason to since it wont effect your results!

[/ QUOTE ]

For a chess god, you sure don't know proper word usage

[/ QUOTE ]

I could beat you in Scrabble + Boggle too!!!!!

Daliman
07-24-2005, 01:22 AM
RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!

This hypothetical, while interesting, is now solved, even IF curtains won't acknowledge it. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Those who thought the difference was very small have a lot to learn. Those who thought the difference changed significantly with differences in EV have less to learn.

I have nothing to learn, for I am the Impotent Daliman!

Oops, I meant omnipotent.

How does the change post function work...?

curtains
07-24-2005, 01:25 AM
I want one chip from everyone to start the tourney and then ship the +1% ROI.

07-24-2005, 01:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If 50 chips were nothing, then why not limp 3 times every game in level one with speculative hands like suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

Unless you a terrible post flop player (keep in mind that hold'em IS a psot flop game...) then this should not hurt your game. In fact, this should increase your ROI, especially at lower limits.

Daliman
07-24-2005, 01:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If 50 chips were nothing, then why not limp 3 times every game in level one with speculative hands like suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

Unless you a terrible post flop player (keep in mind that hold'em IS a psot flop game...) then this should not hurt your game. In fact, this should increase your ROI, especially at lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my....

07-24-2005, 01:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If 50 chips were nothing, then why not limp 3 times every game in level one with speculative hands like suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

Unless you a terrible post flop player (keep in mind that hold'em IS a psot flop game...) then this should not hurt your game. In fact, this should increase your ROI, especially at lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my....

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong?
Are you not confident enough to play suited connectors on the flop?

Daliman
07-24-2005, 01:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If 50 chips were nothing, then why not limp 3 times every game in level one with speculative hands like suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

Unless you a terrible post flop player (keep in mind that hold'em IS a psot flop game...) then this should not hurt your game. In fact, this should increase your ROI, especially at lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my....

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong?
Are you not confident enough to play suited connectors on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I'm not. I suck at SNG's, and poker in general. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

07-24-2005, 02:02 AM
It's ok. I used to be the same way. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

But seriously, are we all against post flop play? Does everything really have to be, ALL IN, coin flip, coin flip, coin flip?

Newt_Buggs
07-24-2005, 02:17 AM
to the OP: I dunno, but those chips would definitly be nice

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If 50 chips were nothing, then why not limp 3 times every game in level one with speculative hands like suited connectors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

Unless you a terrible post flop player (keep in mind that hold'em IS a psot flop game...) then this should not hurt your game. In fact, this should increase your ROI, especially at lower limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my....

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong?
Are you not confident enough to play suited connectors on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I'm not. I suck at SNG's, and poker in general. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
this entire exchange made my night

Taraz
07-24-2005, 07:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It's ok. I used to be the same way. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

But seriously, are we all against post flop play? Does everything really have to be, ALL IN, coin flip, coin flip, coin flip?

[/ QUOTE ]

In SNGs it's more like ALL IN, win some blinds, ALL IN, win some blinds, ALL IN, win some blinds, ALL IN, coin flip with villain's chips . . .

SNOWBALL138
07-24-2005, 08:11 AM
suited connectors have little value when the stacks are so shallow. Trying to hit a set on lvl 1 is a different story though. On party you have 53 BB to start and then almost immediately after that you have 26.5 BB.