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View Full Version : Am I truly a strategy and/or etiquette idiot?


07-22-2005, 04:35 AM
I just had a situation in a 10+1 SNG on PP where there were 4 players left and I was called an idiot for not checking on the bubble to increase the odds of knocking the low stack out. Here is the hand in question:

200/400 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 14148970) - Fri Jul 22 04:02:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 35338 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: Im_an_ogre (535)
Seat 6: cablevision (3075)
Seat 8: Hero (2455)
Seat 10: yepikim (1935)
Im_an_ogre posts small blind (100)
cablevision posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Kh, Ac ]
Hero raises (400) to 400
yepikim folds.
Im_an_ogre raises (435) to 535
Im_an_ogre is all-In.
cablevision calls (335)
Hero calls (135)
Creating Main Pot with $1605 with Im_an_ogre
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ks, 3d, 9d ]
yepikim: check check it
cablevision checks.
yepikim: check it
yepikim:check
Hero bets (1920)
Hero is all-In.
cablevision folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qc ]
Creating Side Pot 1 with $1920 with Hero
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1605 | Side Pot 1: 1920
Board: [ Ks 3d 9d 5h Qc ]
Im_an_ogre balance 0, lost 535 [ 4d 4c ] [ a pair of fours -- Ks,Qc,9d,4d,4c ]
cablevision balance 2540, lost 535 (folded)
Hero balance 3525, bet 2455, collected 3525, net +1070 [ Kh Ac ] [ a pair of kings -- Ac,Kh,Ks,Qc,9d ]
yepikim balance 1935, didn't bet (folded)

Here is the dialogue that followed:
yepikim: idiot
cablevision: I agree
Hero: me?
yepikim: yes
Hero: im trying to win
Hero: not come in the money
Hero: if you wanna be bubble players then fine
cablevision: winning is finishing in the money
Hero: um, no
Hero: its personal preference

Was I wrong for trying to win, instead of just checking to the river so that one of us at least could knock out the 4th place? If I had a marginal hand I would have, but not for the reason they wanted me to, but for the reason of it being a bad hand. I had AK with top pair after the river and I am supposed to play timid. Should I have played it safe to increase the odds of us taking out that player? In my opinion, no I wasn't. I think that was proven by the fact that I ended up winning the SNG for my first win at the $10 level.

Any input into this strategy or etiquette issue would be greatly appreciated. Maybe I am just totally unaware.

EricW
07-22-2005, 04:47 AM
Those guys are idiots. You can do whatever the hell you please.

However, you don't need to explain yourself to them. Furthermore, the "If you want to be bubble players..." comment was unnecessary because it's borderline "poker coaching" on your part.

tigerite
07-22-2005, 04:49 AM
Heh, screw them, I push preflop!

Nottom
07-22-2005, 04:51 AM
People are stupid.

Easy push.

edit: push preflop

HesseJam
07-22-2005, 04:54 AM
It's poker, there is no etiquette. Wait, yes actually there is a rule! No chat about how the hands should be played as long as the hand is still alive. So yepikim violated that rule. To top it with yapping at you that you want to seal the pot for yourself ... the nerve!

clutch
07-22-2005, 05:18 AM
Push preflop. Don't respond to monkeys calling you an idiot. yepikim needs to learn to stfu while hands are being played.

lacky
07-22-2005, 05:29 AM
I agree with reraising all in preflop to get cable out, but, once you get to the flop, why push? At this point you want cable calling and you should be value betting. One half to 2/3 pot bet would be better, something a worse hand may call.

Steve

tigerite
07-22-2005, 05:37 AM
You can't re-raise all in, because the small stack goes all in for less than a full bet, just open push

lacky
07-22-2005, 06:00 AM
well, i hate the min raise, but I'm not fond of open pushing with 12 bb's either, but we can agree on 2.5 to 3x the bb raise.

tigerite
07-22-2005, 06:35 AM
With 4 players? Come on.

js13_tps
07-22-2005, 08:59 AM
doesn't HOH 2 say the correct play is to check it down and eliminate the short stack? It's a real money move .vs fighting with the chip leader over T$535. What if cable had JT?

Just trying to learn here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

hyde
07-22-2005, 09:08 AM
The only flaw I found in your situation was responding to the two idiots.

Maybe.....
you are both jerks and ignorant. If I explained you would be less ignorant, but still jerks. I prefer that you remain ignorant.

Wes ManTooth
07-22-2005, 09:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
doesn't HOH 2 say the correct play is to check it down and eliminate the short stack? It's a real money move .vs fighting with the chip leader over T$535. What if cable had JT?

Just trying to learn here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. If you have a very strong hand then you should bet especially on the flop to push out an opponent that may have draws. Like for example two diamonds hit this flop, if you checked it down and another diamond hit the turn and the again on the river and opponent cablevision had the 5d your losing a back door flush draw to him. In this case the Hero flopped a top pair top kicker a very strong hand in this situation he should definitely bet out. If the Hero had a marginal hand then it is better to check it down with cablevision.

Phill S
07-22-2005, 09:24 AM
I think checking it down is very wrong, thats almost as bad as bluffing a dry side pot. You bet because whilst the EV of the all in guy increases, yours also does so. 3rd guy could plausaby to hit trips on the river and could you get away if he does?

Free cards are never good when you actually have a bit of a hand.

Also, i agree with open pushing this preflop.

Phill

pokerlaw
07-22-2005, 09:46 AM
THis is completely fine w/ me. I *might* have bet 1/2 my stack on the flop and pushed the rest on the turn, but not betting this flop is pretty bad IMO (on a rainbow K flop btw, I might even bet the minimum to get a caller, then push the turn)

why let the others catch up to you?

pokerlaw
07-22-2005, 09:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
doesn't HOH 2 say the correct play is to check it down and eliminate the short stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrington was referring to the fact that you want to eliminate the short stack, so you want to check it down UNTIL you are confident that you can beat the shortie. w/ this flop, i'll be pretty friggen confident my AK is good. So, now that you have (most likely) the winning hand, it is time to either value-bet or make the draws pay to catch up to you.

For example, if hero had a mid pok pair that didn't set, I could see checking down as a better play, but not w/ this flop...

schwza
07-22-2005, 09:57 AM
here's how my conversation would have gone:

yepikim: idiot
cablevision: I agree
Hero: yepikim, i just reported you

ChuckyB
07-22-2005, 12:31 PM
I hate that "check it down" crap. If I've got the better hand, someone's going to pay me off for it...regardless of if someone's all-in or not. I'm happy to take advantage of people who assume we're going to check it down, so I can hit my card on the river. Etiquette-wise your play was fine.

And there's nothing I hate more than yap from people who aren't in the hand.

The Don
07-22-2005, 12:38 PM
This is a clear bet. I do, however, hate morons who BLUFF into dry sidepots though. They have cost me quite a few ITMs over the past few weeks.

wulfheir
07-22-2005, 12:50 PM
Good push.

When I get harrassed there, I just say I learned watching TV, then shut off chat.

edit: What's even funnier about this, is that they harrassed you after the shorty was eliminated. It's not like he even won.

Komodo
07-22-2005, 12:57 PM
If he wanted to check him down, he should have asked preflop. As it was, he could easily have had a flush draw, low pair or something which he cant call with. I dont mind your play at all.

07-22-2005, 01:03 PM
I think I would paraphrase Eddie Murphy here. He talks in the movie "Raw" about a conversation he had with Richard Prior about how Bill Cosby chastised him for his dirty act.

R: "Do they [the audience] laugh?"
E: "Yeah"
R: "Did you get paid?"
E: "Yeah"
R: "Then tell Bill to have a Coke and a smile and shut the [censored] up."

kuro
07-22-2005, 01:05 PM
I just say "Sorry, I just started playing a few days ago." and then go on and play my game. Swallowing your pride to avoid spite calls is +EV.

psyduck
07-22-2005, 01:14 PM
you played the hand incorrectly, and you don't need to explain your actions AT ALL to the other guy.

jcm4ccc
07-22-2005, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You can't re-raise all in, because the small stack goes all in for less than a full bet, just open push

[/ QUOTE ] I never quite understand this rule. But let's say that the hero can reraise preflop when the action comes back to him. Wouldn't it be better to try to get the big stack committed to the hand, by reraising some but not all-in, and then betting or calling all-in on the flop (no matter what the flop brings)? Because I think the best scenario might be if all three of you are all-in. You will only finish out of the money if short stack is first, the big stack is second, and you are third (in other words, you lose both the main pot and the side pot). With AK, this hardly seems likely, and there's a good chance that you could become the dominant stack.

This seems like one of those scenarios where taking a risk [keeping the big stack in the hand] is worth the increased probability of getting into first place.

Wes ManTooth
07-22-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If he wanted to check him down, he should have asked preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I donít agree with this logic... if you flopped two pair you should bet out, again you do not want the opportunity to out draw you and take the pot which might (not in this case) but in some cases move him into the chip lead. You donít want this to happen just because he asked you preflop. Again only bet out if you actually have something good (solid non-drawing hand) that you are confident that would take out the all-in short stack opponent.

Slim Pickens
07-22-2005, 04:55 PM
Screw Harrington here. Sklansky gives decent guidlines for when to check a hand down with a short stack all-in. One is you have to be a relative short stack also, such that elimination of the other player moves you up a place you might not otherwise move up if he stays in. No sale here. You have plenty of chips to stick around four-handed for a while after this hand. Another guideline is that you're not sure you have the best hand. I open-push AK here, but for your action on the flop, I also push since TPTK stands to be the best hand here.

As for the chat after the hand, just say "You agree? Good. Now I know you're both useless at poker and I can win this one easily." Then push the next six hands. It's fun to look back at the PT Game Summary tab when you win six consecutive hands without a showdown three-handed.

iraise50
07-22-2005, 05:15 PM
I think Hero played it ok.

I also think that those two clowns getting uspet was a perfect time to try to tilt them further.

I tihnk you check it down when you and another big stack are trying to eliminate a small stack, and neither of you hits the board particularly hard. If either one of you hits it hard, then...by all means bet. At that point you're trying to get value, not just bust the little guy.

lastchance
07-22-2005, 05:37 PM
Picking up this pot isn't that great. I think I bet less than all-in here, and shove the turn, if I didn't push preflop, and normally, I push preflop.

JayKon
07-22-2005, 09:39 PM
I strongly urg you to report yepikim for discussing the hand while in play. Send the email NOW!

As for your action, it has been discussed properly. I would only reinforce one thing. Your bet is saying, I can beat the allin.

Good luck and good skill,
Jay

Paxosmotic
07-22-2005, 09:43 PM
Hell I may even push the next hand too, just to be a dick. These guys are asses.

morgan180
07-22-2005, 09:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Heh, screw them, I push preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

skierdude1000
07-22-2005, 10:34 PM
Those types of players = more money for everyone us.

Offsprung
07-22-2005, 10:44 PM
If you made that push with AQ on the flop. You would have been an idiot. But so long as you're protecting your hand, it's completely alright.