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J Chap
07-13-2005, 05:54 PM
yo yo yo-

I'm troubled by the fact that I play JJ so differently from the way I play its not-too-distant neighbor, TT.

For instance, on the first hand of a 33 SNG, if I pick up JJ from early position, I'll probably raise to around 8-10x BB. If I pick up TT, I'll probably just limp. One of these plays (or both) has got to be wrong -- I'm thinking it's the TT limp.

Granted, the odds of somebody having two overs on my TT are almost twice the odds of somebody having two overs on my JJ. (10:6, I believe).

Anybody care to explain how YOU distinguish JJ from TT?

J Chap!

KingDan
07-13-2005, 05:57 PM
Raising 8/10x BB is much worse than limping, and I am a big fan of raising even tens Preflop.

3-5x is standard.

How much are you raising AA in this situation?

The Don
07-13-2005, 06:00 PM
I will most likely limp JJ in first position as well. QQ is where I will raise to 95 normally. Raising isn't bad (certainly +CEV if you play flops well) but there are other factors to consider given that you are in a tournament.

citanul
07-13-2005, 06:02 PM
why on earth are you guys in favor of biggie sized raises?

J Chap
07-13-2005, 06:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]

How much are you raising AA in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm probably doubling or maybe tripling with AA, depending on position and other callers.

I want my AA's to be reraised pre-flop or, at worst, called by like 2 people.

Raising TT, especially early, irritates me because I will be afraid of any J,Q,K or A on the flop - that's like at least 2/3 of flops right there.

What do you do if your TT raise gets reraised to like 8-10BB?

johnnybeef
07-13-2005, 06:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody care to explain how YOU distinguish JJ from TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, if a T shows up on the board when I have JJ, I'm usually not willing to get all of my chips in the center. If a J shows up on the board when i have TT, likewise. Otherwise, they are played the same.

johnnybeef
07-13-2005, 06:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
why on earth are you guys in favor of biggie sized raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

do you prefer extra value raises? maybe he just likes wendys

Matt R.
07-13-2005, 06:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
why on earth are you guys in favor of biggie sized raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt R.
07-13-2005, 06:15 PM
Judging by your reasoning for raising so big with TT, I think you most likely just need to work on your postflop skills. You don't ALWAYS have to bet out on any flop if you raised preflop -- I see way too many new players that do this (Super System anyone?). Make a normal 3-3.5x raise and just play the flop if you get called. Be less inclined to make a continuation bet on a bad flop if you get 3+ callers. Of course there's a lot more to it, but those are some simple rules I usually go by.

OOPS -- You said you make big raises with JJ, not TT. Anyway, the main content in my post is still the same. And you definitely can raise TT preflop too (just please stop making it 8-10x the BB).

EverettKings
07-13-2005, 06:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I'm troubled by the fact that I play JJ so differently from the way I play its not-too-distant neighbor, TT.

For instance, on the first hand of a 33 SNG, if I pick up JJ from early position, I'll probably raise to around 8-10x BB. If I pick up TT, I'll probably just limp. One of these plays (or both) has got to be wrong -- I'm thinking it's the TT limp.

Granted, the odds of somebody having two overs on my TT are almost twice the odds of somebody having two overs on my JJ. (10:6, I believe).

Anybody care to explain how YOU distinguish JJ from TT?

J Chap!

[/ QUOTE ]


At level 1, with 10/15 blinds, raising 3-5x is pretty worthless. Raising JJ up to 90-100 ish is what I'd do, though 8-10x might be over the top. It gets you in a big pot out of position vs a hand that's likely quite good. Alternatively you win some pretty petty blinds. So a good sized raise (neither huge nor small) will strike the right balance IMO. I'd also experiment with limping JJ in EP, as some prefer it. TT I always limp.

To the OP's question....

The reason why JJ pwns TT is because of the J. With TT you have another broadway overcard to deal with, and AJ, KJ, etc type hands are an issue. With JJ you cut down severely on the number of playable hands that trouble you.

For the same reason, there's a huge gap from JJ to QQ, and a bigger gap from QQ to KK (as now only one overcard can be hand and one hand in the game puts you in trouble).

TT to 99 is less significant because hands with a T in it aren't as frequently played. Basically I'm saying that the difference in consecutive pairs increases as they get bigger. I treat TT and 99 very close to the same, not quite premiums. JJ is entering into monster-land, for the reasons above.

Thats my 2 cent'

Kings

Bigwig
07-13-2005, 06:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
At level 1, with 10/15 blinds, raising 3-5x is pretty worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm too hungry for dinner right now to go into this seriously, but this comment makes no sense.

The Don
07-13-2005, 06:34 PM
Have you played the 22-33s lately, a raise to 60 level 1 does nothing to stop all 4 people from entering the pot. I prefer 90-95.

Matt R.
07-13-2005, 06:36 PM
And this is bad with a big pocket pair because?

SammyKid11
07-13-2005, 06:37 PM
Well, I only play the 11s right now...but risking so much money to win such small blinds seems like mathematical kamikaze to me. Now, fine -- if you have 3 limpers in front of you and want to throw 7-9BB in, I can deal with that. But if you're open-raising anything on level 1 for that much, I think it's a bad strategy. Though it looks like there's not much consensus here around that. Or is there?

Matt R.
07-13-2005, 06:40 PM
There's a consensus (at least I hope there is). Overbetting the pot when the blinds are next-to-worthless is only asking to get called by hands that beat you. You WANT the bad players that call with anything to call you with your medium/big pairs. If you know what you're doing on the flop, you'll come out way ahead in the long run.

KingDan
07-13-2005, 06:47 PM
If raise 60, a minraise=105 = Easy Call

tigerite
07-13-2005, 08:02 PM
I repeat. So what.

adanthar
07-13-2005, 08:13 PM
I won't comment on the raise size debate other than to say that too much is as bad as not enough. However, there is a very difference between JJ and TT that, to my knowledge, isn't in any poker book and is quite simple: The hands bad players CC a raise with are far more likely to contain two overcards to TT than to JJ. When you have tens, someone who calls a decent raise with KJo isn't really making a mistake, whereas they are making a huge mistake (potentially a stacking mistake) when you have jacks. The only coldcalling hands that are a danger to JJ are KQ and AQ, while there are three additional hands of 16 combos apiece (AJ, KJ, QJ) that you do not want calling with tens.

Add the fact that tens are obviously more likely to have an overcard flop and you should often just limp TT while JJ is a clear raise.

Now, let it never be said I don't post any rationale behind my decisions /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

tigerite
07-13-2005, 08:18 PM
However there is definitely argument for limping JJ in EP.. but we've gone down that road before /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bigwig
07-13-2005, 08:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I won't comment on the raise size debate other than to say that too much is as bad as not enough. However, there is a very difference between JJ and TT that, to my knowledge, isn't in any poker book and is quite simple: The hands bad players CC a raise with are far more likely to contain two overcards to TT than to JJ. When you have tens, someone who calls a decent raise with KJo isn't really making a mistake, whereas they are making a huge mistake (potentially a stacking mistake) when you have jacks. The only coldcalling hands that are a danger to JJ are KQ and AQ, while there are three additional hands of 16 combos apiece (AJ, KJ, QJ) that you do not want calling with tens.

Add the fact that tens are obviously more likely to have an overcard flop and you should often just limp TT while JJ is a clear raise.

Now, let it never be said I don't post any rationale behind my decisions /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Also, you flop a set or a flop with undercards greater than 50% of the time with JJ, and not with TT.

That's an enormous difference as well.

J Chap
07-14-2005, 12:30 PM
A quick follow-up example of some nice experiential learning:

I just got burned on the bubble pushing my TT and getting called from none other than KJ -- which caught a J on the flop. So there is a difference between JJ and TT, after all!

Knowledge plus Experience = Improvement


Thanks to all contributors here.
J Chap!

tigerite
07-14-2005, 01:16 PM
On the bubble is entirely different to early stages. TT is more often than not a push hand on the bubble, in fact I can't think of very many times when it's not. He probably made a bad call with KJ unless he had you covered by loads, or something. Even then it was -EV for him to do so, I suspect.