View Full Version : What the Palestinian Authority Has Been Up To

09-13-2001, 01:48 PM
Check the link on Drudge if you want. The Palestinian Authority has been prohibiting journalists from covering the celebrations for the terrorist attack on us. They obviously don't want us to see what crap their people actually are. Arafat has been smart enough to say the right things, but he is either not speaking for the people he alledgedly leads or is lying. Palestinian Authority OFFICERS are celebrating the attack. This cannot be chalked up to some low-level celebrations among the Palestinian version of monster truck fans. This is how a significant chunk of the Palestinian population feels. When will we learn that pandering to these people in peace talks will not work? Doesn't it make you proud that we put American credibility on the line to get significant concessions from Israel. Do you remember the reports of our Secretary of State (Albright) RUNNING after Yasser to beg him to come to the table. America should not beg countries who can hurt us (China, Russia, whomever) let alone this bunch.

End of rant, but I think we must begin to consider the Palestinian Authority as our enemy in order to deal with them appropriately in future talks and to set a new Middle Eastern policy. I don't say this because of a few crazies who celebrate; Egypt has these kinds of people too, but they have a government which can insure an appropriate policy, not one driven by these ideas. The celebrations are the true face of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, ER, "Movement" I fear.

09-13-2001, 03:23 PM
So what course of action do you suggest we take against the Palestinians?

09-13-2001, 03:45 PM
The Palestinians have been treated like crap by the western world since the Balfour Declaration. When you treat people like crap, they behave like crap.

I imagine a significant percentage of the Egyptian population didn't like it when Sadat met with Begin and Carter at Camp David. Sadat was ahead of his people; hopefully Arafat can be so also and insure an appropriate policy, despite what his underlings do. Celebrations of death and violence are disgusting, but there's no question that, as you say, a significant percentage of the Palestinian population hates us. Treating them as our enemy or crap will make things worse for everyone, making them hate us even more, and increasing the likelihood of additional ugly events both here and in the Middle East.

09-13-2001, 03:58 PM
Sorry...but you're a fool. To actually believe that most people of any race/religion/whatever would celebrate the death of so many innocent people is folly. You are basically saying they are not human. It reflects your own mentality more than anything? You say "this is the way the majority of those people think?" Where did you get this? Have you ever talked to people from there? Or do you just get it from Drudge? I know lots of Muslims and Arabs (I went to college in Berkeley) They are as diverse as Christians and Jews. Sure there are angry ones but the majority of them are soft spoken and kind. There are angry Protestants and Catholics in Ireland who kill each other even today. Will you celebrate if innocent Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims are killed? Probably. But most of the rest of us won't. What about if innocent Irish children are killed? Will you react differently? I for one will react the same way.

BTW the Egyptians react more positively to us because we are trading partners for oil. Put the Palestinians in the same situation and you will get the same reaction. Open your mind...the world is not as black and white as you seem to think.

09-13-2001, 04:06 PM
Very good post Andy, heaping violence upon violence will not help alleviate the pain of what has happened. It is tough to maintain emotional composure in times like these but please let us not all collectively go on tilt!

09-13-2001, 04:43 PM
I don't think he was saying that all muslims or all arabs think this way. What he was saying is that the celebrations that went on in Palestine were not just a few nuts. I was watching the video, and it certainly looked to me like there was a rather general feeling of celebration. If they were celebrating the deaths of thousands of Americans, then I think it's safe to say they hate us.

***Will you celebrate if innocent Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims are killed? Probably.***

No, I would not, and I doubt that HDPM would either. That's was the point of his post: Why were these people celebrating? Why do they hate us that much?

09-13-2001, 05:23 PM
"Why do they hate us that much?"

That's the million dollar question. I think the U.S. has to look itself in the mirror and answer this question. Not until this is done will problems with terrorists be truly resolved.

09-13-2001, 05:26 PM
""Why were these people celebrating? Why do they hate us that much?""

I know, it is painful to see those TV images of small children gloating over America's suffering. When the pain subsides, it's good to hold that thought : Why do they do it?

If, like any sane person, you can accept that we are all biologically equal - and that, therefore, Palestinians, are not stupid neanthertals but people like you and me - then there must be a reason.

[Again, none of the above talk should distract from the absolutely criminal nature of what was done to innocent people on Tuesday. People talk about American crimes --as I have, many times-- but then put those crimes on a weight scale, as if Tuesday's barbarism balances out. Fuck that. No crime can justify another crime.]

09-13-2001, 05:43 PM
I'll answer my own question, at least partially. They hate us that much because they have been taught to feel that way. They have been shown things which are bad and told "Americans did that." They have just as many illusions about what our country is like as we do about theirs. Perhaps more. But we don't hate them. At least we didn't before Tuesday, and hopefully we can get back to not hating them as quickly as possible. We should make an effort to discover what it is that they focus on, as justification for hating us, but even if we discover all the reasons we may not change our ways at all. Not out of a stubborn refusal to compromise, but out of a fundamental disagreement about the nature of morality. We believe in certain things because of rational arguments which support them. We believe in other things because of irrational fears and prejudices. Some of us believe in other things because they have been drilled into our heads so much that we have no choice. Nonetheless, we can distinguish between these things. We can strive to believe in more rational things and fewer irrational ones. I think a person should have the right to believe in a religion or not, based on their own judgement. I believe that a person should have the right to wear the clothing they feel is appropriate, but only if it is within the bounds of decency of the area they are in or the event they are attending. You could call this a meta-moral code, since it makes no prescription of particular standards, yet it sets out a rational basis for determining which ethical standards are acceptable.

A killer who claims that his morality demands slaughter is still a killer, and should still be dealt with as one.

09-13-2001, 06:44 PM
Boris, right now I think the appropriate course of action is to do nothing in terms of the Palestinian Authority. But we must keep this in mind for future talks when we think of demanding something from Israel or wondering whether the Palestinian Authority can meet a certain condition. We should also reevalauate our policy towards the Palestinian question. But now is not a real good time.

Lenny, thanks for the comments, I think you saw what I was intending in a post with the potential for controversy.

John Ho, you were out of line in your response. You did not read my post carefully enough. I should not attempt to defend myself once you engaged in a personal attack, but I will in the hope you will read the post again and perhaps think of your own positions again. You said, "To actually believe that most people of any race/religion/whatever would celebrate the death of so many innocent people is folly." No, I have seen videotape of celebrations with my own eyes. I did not view it as a widespread thing at first. But after reading the Drudge link, it appeared to me that the celebrations were more widespread than originally thought and participants in them included officials of the government, such as it is. If the news report was wrong, my opinion could obviously change. But the Palestinian Authority is prohibiting coverage of these celebrations. What does that tell you? To infer from that that I am thus a racist is an error. To take that inference and then imply I am a racist and a fool is where you are out of line. My post obviously does not lump all Muslims or Arabs together. Yes, I spoke of Palestinians, but the last I looked they assert rights for themselves based on their existence as Palestinians. To speak of this group as a group in the political sense is fair game. It is folly for you to deny these celebrations are occurring. You may take something different from their existence than I do, but they are going on. It is naive to believe there are not people who celebrate innocent deaths. They are out there. My criticism of them is not that they are not human beings. It is because these people are human beings their behavior is despicable.

Your worst insult was indicating that I would celebrate the deaths of innocent Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims. That you lump these all together shows your lack of analysis of my post. I also get the impression you don't understand the gravity of this insult. I shouldn't even tell you this, because your insult really doesn't merit a response, but I will tell you I have been sickened at the deaths of some Palestinians in the ongoing fighting.

You probably should not have mentioned you went to Berkeley. I was very tempted to respond in kind to you, and the fact you went there explains a lot to someone in the mood to hurl insults. But I will refrain.

09-13-2001, 07:22 PM
High Desert Poker Man

I think it is unlikely that you understand what exactly these people are celebrating. We care little about how other parts of the world think about us. We in fact care little about what they think in general.

These people are smart enough to associate the US with Israel. The Palestinians can not fight the Israelis on equal footing. So they resort to these tactics. For them, this is a mixture of the French Revolution with D day. At once they prove they are a force to be reckoned with. That even as poor and downtrodden they still have enough pride to fight back and influence OUR lives, instead of us just influencing theirs. That even if they live in shacks they are smart enough to penetrate the most powerful country in the world and cause utter chaos.

The citizens of the US need to realize that Palestinians believe that the US has been indirectly influencing the way of life in the occupied territories for many years. It is a common belief that the US aid to Israel goes into the bullets and bombs that kill their youth. The celebrations are their way of showing the US that they are aware of this, and to let them know they will not sit there like fools and pretend that the US isn't stacking the deck in Israel's favor (sorry to end with a bad poker analogy).

09-13-2001, 07:38 PM
Good post Hetron. But I think my worry is that this is exactly what they are celebrating. If you are correct, and I think you may very well be, we should understand that nothing we do will please the Palestinians, unless we destroy Israel. We won't destroy Israel obviously, so we should follow a policy that best serves our self interest in light of this Palestinian belief.

09-13-2001, 07:41 PM
HDPM - I think that if our (the US) response to the attack is motivated by the desire to prevent future terrorist incidents, then it's imperative that we re-evaluate the Palestinian question at the same time. IMO, the root - of Arab enmity in general and Palestinian hatred in particular - is the US-Israeli relationship. Those little Palestinian kids grow up seeing the Israelis use US helicopters and US missiles and US guns to launch attacks on Palestinian people. When the kids get older their rage grows stronger and some of them inevitably turn into monsters and end up in terrorist cells. The current state of Israeli-Palestinian relations will only continue to nurture generation after generation of terrorists and will lead to countless more deaths. I have no doubt that some of those Palestinians deserve exactly what Isreal does to them. I also have no doubt that Israeli policy is counter productive to ending the cycle of violence. We should think about this when deciding how to respond. I'm of the opinion that an effective response is to either take a Ghandi like approach or the option recommended by Dr. Wogga. I just don't have the stomach for the latter but maybe others do. One thing I'm sure of is that "pinpoint" military strikes similar to the attacks carried out by Isreal are the worst possible solution and will only serve to empower anti-US terrorists. Anyone who thinks taking out bin Laden and his lieutenants will solve the problem has their head in the sand.

BTW - I also went to Berkeley (grad school). You can hurl any insults you feel like. I'm not easily offended but it would be better if you're funny at the same time.

09-13-2001, 08:01 PM

Your words anger me greatly.

"For them, this is a mixture of the French Revolution with D day. At once they prove they are a force to be reckoned with."

They do this by killing civilians how f*****g herioc. Did anyone in the US think we were heroes for dropping the A-bomb? If they did they were quite misguided. What was done was necessary to protect american lives. This protects none of these peoples lives and actually endangers them. D-Day you are lucky most of the veterans of WWII are dead. You dishonor the memory of people who fought and died to liberate europe. The fact that you can try to justify these acts and compare them to something that has provided your exsistance is unbelievable. It is sad to see that any american can feel this way. Please never use we in the sentence when talking about americans ever again. You don't deserve to.


09-13-2001, 08:41 PM
I apoligize for my last post. I am just getting very angry with apathetic people when its our country that suffers because of it. I understand that you were just making an analogy and trying to define their perspective. I truly loathe the perspective you painted for them and went on the tilt!


09-13-2001, 08:59 PM

You REALLY need to get off your jingoistic high horse. First of all, I come from a family where I don't have to hesitate to share my views regardless of whether everyone agrees with them or not. I have a grandfather who served in WWII and other relatives who have served in the US Armed forces. None of them have ever threatened to deport me for my views. In fact, many of them are just as (if not more) vocal in their criticism of US foreign policy.

Furthermore, I never ANYWHERE in my post suggested that the Palestinians way of thinking justifies such an attack. I merely was trying to interpret how THEY felt. In the lore of many a country's history, there are bandit types who killed innocents in the name of liberation. These bandits are glorified when in many cases they were guilty of killing civilian members of the oppressor population. Should these types be glorified in 2001? It certainly is questionable.

The D day analogy was made not in terms of liberating Europe, but rather in terms of the massive surprise attack the Germans knew was coming, but could do nothing to stop. That was all my analogy was trying to do. I wasn't comparing the US to the Nazis or anything like that. Nor was I comparing the heroism of the people in the boats off the coast of Normandy to that of the idiots commandeering a civilian passenger plane and ramming it into the WTC.

I would appreciate it if in the future any attacks on my posts stick to their content, and not turn into personal attacks on me. Thank you.

09-13-2001, 09:01 PM

09-14-2001, 02:59 AM
John Ho, Can you say Berkeley liberal ?

My god get real man, just because you met some real nice Arabs at school, they should be nice and happy since they are in America. John, most Arabs i have met have been very warm and nice people, but i am sure High Desert Man is referring to the radical idiots of which there are a lot of that hate America.

I for one will be celebrating when we blow the shit out of these freaks and i will have much sorrow for all the good Arabs who will suffer, a price must be paid. For me it can't happen too soon.

Just my thoughts,


09-14-2001, 09:22 AM
The Drudge report that you refer to claims, citing anonymous "Palestinian sources," that the PA is intimidating broadcast journalists from filming celebrations of the attacks. It points out that the new journalists have denied the allegation. One would think that if anyone had an interest in promoting this story, if it were true, it would be the journalists who have been muzzled.

The palestinians, in the meantime, contend that they are being targeted by a disinformation campaign: "Israeli radio on Wednesday quoted an alleged Islamic leader in Italy as praising Osama Bin Laden and saying that candies were being given out in mosques throughout Europe in celebration of the tragic plane-crashes into the World Trade Center in New York. However, when Islamic groups in Europe examined the veracity of reports to that effect, they found out that the figure in question was actually nonexistent nor the organization he allegedly headed. . . . Islamic groups have also warned that Mossad agents were posing as ‘Muslim leaders' and making statements which would harm Muslims, like praising the terrorist acts in the US." www.palestineinfo.com (http://www.palestineinfo.com)

It makes you wonder, at the least, who Drudge's sources are.

I'm not sure what your complaint with the PA really is. They condemned the attacks, and are discouraging the celebrations. Even Drudge points out that the PA has donated blood to the WTC victims. I take it you would prefer otherwise, so that the country and the attack victims see the tragedy celebrated on every screen more often. Isn't this just another example of phony patriot hate-mongering?

09-14-2001, 09:48 AM
I think the article has been updated, but you should read it more carefully before throwing around accusations of "phony patriot hate-mongering." The journalists have an interest in appearing like they have not been prevented from doing their job. They said "most" celebrations have been covered. That is a loaded statement the offered in their defense. Also, the guy who spoke on the radio said celebrations would harm the Palestinian interest. Now, this may be an incomplete or inaccurate quotation. But if it is accurate it does not speak well of the man saying it. How about don't celebrate because it is disgusting. But maybe he said that too.

I am not familiar with the other portions of this alleged disinformation campaign. I think most people are able to focus their thoughts and feelings about this attack and various groups involved without spiraling into some general racist hysteria. Some clearly are not able to do so.

As far as questioning sources, it doesn't look like any identified source said Mossad agents were posing as islamic leaders. This seems farfetched, but I suppose it is possible.

My complaint with the Palestinian Authority is that I don't think they are capable of governing the Palestinian people and the various groups like Fatah in a coherent enough way to make the peace process meaningful. I thought that before the recent events, but the celebrations highlight this. That is what I was saying when you compare what Arafat is publicly saying to what is going on. It is also why I said in the future the Secretary of State should not run after a terrorist turned leader like Arafat and beg him to come to the table. That kind of kowtowing has sure gained us a lot of favor among the Palestinians, eh? Say what you want about Israel, but in the peace process they have a government that is organized enough to pull out of settlements and abide by a cease-fire. So do other countries in the region that support the Palestinians. But the Palestinians don't.

09-14-2001, 10:13 AM
Let me clarify a few things if I may, Desert Man...

*** The Fatah is actually the organisation led by Yasser Arafat himself, that he absolutely controls since its inception, some 50 years ago. The Fatah is also the most popular organisation among the Palestinians (ie with the most members).

*** There are no official elections among Palestinians but there is a Palestinian sorta Parliament (Council), where every resistance organisation is represented, except for those 10-15 member splinter groups who are doing the real terror. I don't know the election procedures. But in that Parliament-in-exile the Fatah has the most representatives.

*** Palestinians have been radicalised in the last years and many have turned to the extremist religious groups such as Hezbollah or Hamas, not because they suddenly became very religious. The Palestinians have never been fanatics in matters of religion (Arafat's wife is a practicing Christian). But because they are desperatewith the impasse of their situation, where their future is something like the Blacks' enclaves in apartheid Soauth Africa. And that's according to the Oslo agreements, which even that, Sharon found as "giving away too much"!...

*** The Palestinian men and women and old people and most young persons have tasted disaster and massacre first-hand many times over. They are wise enough to share form a distance in the suffering of the American families who lost their loved ones, instead of being glad. They are not glad. They've been there. They empathize.

09-14-2001, 10:28 AM
You find it far-fetched that Israel's covert intelligence unit would spread disinformation that serves Israeli interests? If you say so.

You wrote: "My complaint with the Palestinian Authority is that I don't think they are capable of governing the Palestinian people and the various groups like Fatah in a coherent enough way to make the peace process meaningful. I thought that before the recent events, but the celebrations highlight this."

I don't see any connection between such bad-taste celebrations and the ability of Palestinians to negotiate peace or govern themselves. But assuming there is one, aren't you applying a standard to the Palestinians that you won't apply to Israel, particularly the fanatically racist settlers?

For example, regarding Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the NYT, 2/26/94:

"Thousands of Israelis and settlers participated in the funeral of Dr. Goldstein. . . . In the eulogy, participants shouted ‘death to Arabs' and ‘transfer the Arabs.' In the eulogy, one of Kach leaders, T. Pollack, gave an impressive speech about Dr. Goldstein. He told the participants that Dr. Goldstein refused to treat any Arab patient in his life, even during his service in the IDF where he refused to treat the wounded of the enemy. Rabbi Yisrael Ariel Goldstein described Goldstein as a person who is having a higher status than the saints. He described him as a ‘Royal Martyr' who was ‘Listening to the cry of the stolen Land [complaining] from the Ishmaelites [Arabs] every day. And he did [something] to alleviate that cry.' . . . Another speaker in the eulogy said that ‘The People of Israel were sick and Goldstein gave us the medication.'"

From The Guardian News Service, 2/27/98:

"Over the years [Goldstein's] grave has become a place of pilgrimage for Israel's far-right, who come to pray and read the words on the stone block: "Of blessed memory, may the Lord avenge his blood...who gave his life for the state of Israel, its Torah and its land."

Goldstein earned these accolades and tributes by his cold-blooded murder of 29 Palestinian worshipers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in 1994. Imagine how popular he'd be with this segment of Israeli society if he had murdered 10,000.