View Full Version : Huge hands in stealing positions

05-20-2005, 12:41 PM
sometimes I have problems when I get huge hands in stealing positions, because I dont know if I want to push and possibly only win the blinds or raise to extract more value but play a very difficult flop. Here some examples:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t980)
Button (t3020)
SB (t1630)
BB (t610)
Hero (t1760)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t600, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t400.

Flop: (t1900) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks,Hero ???

Here I am completely lost. It seems AKo is too difficult to play postflop when nearly pot commited without hitting an Ace or King. If I push here, weaker Aces fold which I dont want and pocket pairs call which I dont want either.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2920)
BB (t2920)
UTG (t1495)
Hero (t2665)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t900</font>, SB calls t750, BB calls t600.

Flop: (t2700) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ???

Problem is: If I bet and someone got a Flush Draw/ Straight Draw, he will raise me all-in, because both SB and BB had been playing fairly maniacal up to this point. If I dont bet I give freecards and am in for some tough call/fold decisions.

Now in general: Is it important to slowplay good hands like AKo, QQ preflop to extract more value, even though it's tough like hell to play them from the flop on with those shallow stacks? Or dont you lose much if you simply push all-in?

05-20-2005, 01:15 PM
Hand 1 is why I push with AK preflop. I might come in smaller with QQ-AA in hopes of getting action, but not AK.

In this case you are in check down mode with the BB essentially all-in, which is obviously good for you.

Hand 2: I like the play a lot better with QQ but if the table is loose enough that you get 2 callers I think I'd just go ahead and push. One of them will likely come along anyway. I think you have to go into checkfold mode against 2 players, they are going to have an A way to often.

Now in general: Is it important to slowplay good hands like AKo, QQ preflop to extract more value,

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not important. I do it rarely and usually only when the players seem tight but not good enough to see through the smaller raise for what it is. I push so often at this point in the SNG that people are usually looking to call me with trash, so I might as well push my big hands too and hope this is the time they find some trash good enough to call with.

05-20-2005, 01:18 PM
"I do it rarely and usually only when the players seem tight but not good enough to see through the smaller raise for what it is."

Ok thx. What if you get a stealing hand maybe one orbit after. Do you push all-in even though you might have less fold equity? What if you showed down your monster hand the orbit before? Do you raise 3BB to make the same impression?
Or do the party players not notice anything at all?

05-20-2005, 01:29 PM
You should not slow play AK, or QQ. You want to make people fold that have drawing hands. You showed strength preflop in both cases and it is possible the flop did not help your opponent. I would bet the flop in both cases. If you're raised, fold, if you're or called, check the turn.

05-20-2005, 01:33 PM
1: i'd push pre-flop. given you didn't, i'd push the flop. button will be hard pressed to call with a hand like JJ/99 given that you're essentially pushing into an empty side pot. and you are likely either ahead of BB or have a lot of outs.

2: your only bet is all-in. i'd check-fold this one away. you have extra incentive not to go broke right now so you can make the money.

05-20-2005, 01:37 PM
Maybe I misunderstood you but I dont fear drawing hands at all,since they dont have implied odds to draw.

Betting doesnt work too good because if i get raised I'm instantly pot commited.

05-20-2005, 01:39 PM
1: Ok, I will push preflop in the future. I pushed the flop too, unfortunately button had AQo and I was very sad (BB had 55 and called too)

2: I check-folded it too. One player had hit a set and took the other one out. Both hands a push would have been better.

05-20-2005, 03:33 PM
I think at this point in the game, with eveyrone or almost everyone at &lt; 10xBB, you need to be pushing steals so much that raising your monsters just seems way to transparent. Probably doesn't matter at the 10's, but I'd say at the 33s some of your opponents at least are going to notice and loosen up their calls when you try to push steal, which is obviously bad. I also think that you should be pushing often enough that people know you're pushing some weak hands, so I think the EV of someone making a frustration call on your monster push is at least as big as that of getting a few more calls with a smaller raise.

05-20-2005, 04:15 PM
good choice of hand histories
in hand 1 because the BB only has 3BB he is getting odds to call with almost anything, so I push this outright and am probably glad if he folds. On this flop I actually make a weak bet at around t250. There is a good chance that the button missed the flop and will likely fold to a bet this week since he has to figure that I'm not bluffing. I am also protected from getting bluffed since the button has little to gain from pushing me off my hand without something strong. outright pushing has a better chance of getting him to fold a pocket, but I don't think this added advantage is worth risking my whole stack as opposed to t250

hand 2 I check/fold on this flop

The Yugoslavian
05-20-2005, 04:25 PM
These blinds are too big to be playing big hands the way you are and then worrying about the flop. I'd push both pre-flop in a heartbeat. If I'm getting cute, I'm going to be pushing them post-flop anyway given the pots that were built and flop cards.

You have FE post flop in Hand #1....I think you can get lower pp to fold here vs. many opopnents post flop.

In hand #2 given the action I'd just push post flop...but perhaps just checking and calling any turn bet/push is better.


05-20-2005, 04:58 PM
Yugo has nailed much of the exact right answers for the OP.

To continue, you've got a pile of outs if you're called in hand 1.

Additionally, to sort of rub your nose in it:


I mean really, what's the line of thinking involved with raising the amounts you did? Or, to continue, when you look back on these hands before posting them, how do you not come to the conclusion that perhaps all the decisions would be made easier if you had pushed preflop? Do you really feel that you're going to get someone to come along for 1/3 of their stack and then get stuck to the pot post flop that wouldn't have just put in all their money preflop? Or is it that you would enjoy folding post flop when it doesn't hit you, or produces overcards? Look at the last sentence and then don't raise stupid amounts ever again.

Blah, and I was being such a nice guy too. Oh, screw that, this isn't mean either.