View Full Version : How many games give a solid ITM% (dont read to flame)

Phill S
05-19-2005, 08:17 PM
Flaming is getting too common here, however i understand that some questions just get boring when said over and over again.

I have tried searching, but have been unable to come up with an answer.

We all know ROIs take a long time to understand clearly, but ITM%s become more solid a lot quicker (i paraphrase lori here).

So how many games does it take to get a good idea what your true ITM % is (within a narrow range of accuracy)?

I ask because having just moved up to the 20s on PR, my ITM%,over a really small sample, is only mid 30s, whereas my ROI is well over 30%.

This shows im not getting into the money enough, but when i do i take 1st more than i should; its actually a LOT higher than is should be - from memory its like 5 1sts, and a couple of 2nds whilst only having 1 3rd.

And yes, i do realise this is approx 30 games so i cant draw solid conclusions yet, i realise this.


05-19-2005, 08:18 PM
Ive heard 1000 is enough.

05-19-2005, 08:19 PM
1k for itm, 100k for roi. holla

Nick M
05-19-2005, 08:22 PM
100k...you trying to get the kid to crap himself??? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Phill S
05-19-2005, 08:25 PM
im not gonna pretend that i thought it wouldnt be less, even 50% of that, but thanks guys.

Big Limpin'
05-19-2005, 08:27 PM
why is ITM important?

Phill S
05-19-2005, 08:34 PM
Its as good an early indicator as any.

And it doesnt help that my ITM is lower than it should be, and my ROI is higher than it should.

Big Limpin'
05-19-2005, 08:36 PM
so you've made $ with a low ITM.
That kinda contradicts "its as good an indicator as any"

Phill S
05-19-2005, 09:05 PM
so you've made $ with a low ITM.
That kinda contradicts "its as good an indicator as any"

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in asfar as i had asked how many games made it a good indicator. 30 is obviously not - nor do i use the figure to judge my play. It just sparked my interest and i dont think ive ever read it on here.

Its as good an indicator as any, but only when its pretty accurate. And its accuracy is found a lot faster than ROI, which is the ultimate long term indicator of success.


05-20-2005, 03:56 AM
when raptor says 100k to find out ROI is HE SERIOUS?????

05-20-2005, 04:35 AM
ITM is not important. Just try to win money.

05-20-2005, 04:36 AM
when raptor says 100k to find out ROI is HE SERIOUS?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, well, in a way I'm sure he is. 100k SNGs would certainly give you an accurate gauge of your ROI. I've heard that 5k is a good number to give you a decent idea, however.

05-20-2005, 05:05 AM
I think the figure is almost unknowable for ROI.

The finishes in or next to the money are huge spikes except for 3rd to second. 4th to 3rd and 2nd to 1st are huge differences monetarily, and any number of random developments on the flop, turn, or river can have a huge difference in pushing you from one of those positions to the other.

Two out of three changes between finishing positions being both so vulnerable to a random quirk of the deal and also potentially netting you such huge changes in your prize money means you can only come up with a representative indicator of your skill level over an unbelievable number of games.

How many hands do you really get to play per tournament with three players? Or heads up? Well, if you get eliminated before you get ITM or heads up, as even the best players do in most tournaments -- none. Well, that's certainly an auspicious start. Then, if you actually get heads up, how many face-offs are going to be notably absent of the influence of luck? Few. And how many hands are you really going to play in those before somebody gets busted?

So you take a small part of a small number before you even have anything to measure. You'll have to accumulate a ton of SNG's before that small slice of them amounts to much of anything numerically, in the middle of all the noise of good and bad luck. And an ROI figure refined from an incredible number of games will still have an absurdly outsized ability to be swayed by completely ordinary patches of unusual luck for an incredibly long time.

And that's if your skill level is remaining somewhat consistent throughout the measurement period, which is also one heck of a gigantic IF.

I was just noting in another thread yesterday that out of the 600 or so SNG's I've played, I don't think there's a single point along the line in them that is representative of my skill level, from the very best to the very worst of my results. 600 and it's basically worth zero data points as far as my ROI goes. How long will it take till I even get something worth averaging into something else?

I'll need one hell of a daunting number before I can even begin to speak of what my fair long-term ROI is. Who knows what the number could be, but I could see tremendous swings happening even within a cluster of 1000 SNGs, so 50 or 100k of them starts to seem like a lot smaller number than it would sound.

And that AT ONE LEVEL, if your skill level is remaining in a narrow range -- uh oh.

05-20-2005, 05:21 AM
50k sngs eh.. thats a lot isnt it? i duno, in the next 2-3 years, i hope to have accurate data over 50k sngs. i wonder how much people would pay for that.. lol. probably not much since its gonna be like 4% lifetime roi. holla

05-20-2005, 12:10 PM
^^ITM% = ^^ROI

^^ROI = ^^MMM*

*(Money Money Money)

Big Limpin'
05-20-2005, 12:13 PM
^^^MMM = ^^^MMM
the most acurate indicator of how much money you are gonna make is how much money you have made.