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View Full Version : Another annoying BB hand


Newt_Buggs
05-18-2005, 11:21 PM
$50+5
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t985)
Hero (t1000)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1270)
UTG+2 (t1215)
MP1 (t825)
MP2 (t830)
MP3 (t910)
CO (t990)
Button (t975)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t15, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t105) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls t100, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t200</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero?</font>

valenzuela
05-18-2005, 11:26 PM
why raise postflop /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Maulik
05-18-2005, 11:31 PM
I think your PF raise followed by flop raise is making him think, wow, I don't have a jack, but I'm going to fire back at him because its a scary bored.

Newt_Buggs
05-18-2005, 11:33 PM
my pf and post flop raise??? i checked in the BB then bet out once, then it got raised and action is back on me

Maulik
05-18-2005, 11:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
my pf and post flop raise??? i checked in the BB then bet out once, then it got raised and action is back on me


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your PF raise followed by flop raise is making him think, wow, I don't have a jack, but I'm going to fire back at him because its a scary bored.

[/ QUOTE ]

i only read val's post.

i'd fire back or push, i'm not sure how you manage t1000 chips to start, but I think your hand is good

Newt_Buggs
05-19-2005, 02:31 AM
I just found this hand frustrating because its hard to tell where I stand here, and I can't find a way to figure out if I'm beat without committing my whole stack. A call and a mini raise is definitely suspicious, but I feel like a pussy laying my hand down here. Calling lets the draws in, and raising is probably only going to get me called when I'm beat.

beeyjay
05-19-2005, 03:06 AM
I probably go bust on this hand after this flop. If the button has the J with a better kicker he should raise more to get rid of the flush draw. Based on this raise I would put him on a decent King trying to figure out where he stands and I would push all in. I have been called by both kings and better jacks in situations like this and can't honestly say if its + or - EV to push. Basically I think you have the best hand and the old me would have pushed, but lately I've been leaning towards not trying to get this involved this early as having 900 chips here is just fine because the game is won or lost later on.

liucipher
05-19-2005, 03:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If the button has the J with a better kicker he should raise more to get rid of the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
To me a minraise means one of the following (1) the nuts (KK) (2) one of those funky blocking bets by a nice draw (AhXh) that hopes to get the turn checked to him (3) a king. Personally I feel like probability of the latter two outweigh the first.

I honestly don't know though, since my "experience" is in $6s/$11s and not $55s where the quality of play is most likely higher and the stacks are deeper.

And of course, you never know what kind of silly player thinks QJo IS the nuts despite the heavily coordinated board and in his mind is "trapping" you.

Newt_Buggs
05-19-2005, 03:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If the button has the J with a better kicker he should raise more to get rid of the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
on a side not I've been trying to cope with this same reasoning. Sometimes people do such stupid things that I just can't figure out what kind of horrible logic they are using.
ex: it checks around on an A-rag flop with a flush draw on the board and i bet out on a blank turn trying to buy figuring everyone as week. I get called by the button, who then checks it down with me to show down a pair of A7 for a pair of aces. Why did he not bet his pair of aces?? I don't know, but I feel even stupider then he is when I get myself in these situations

liucipher
05-19-2005, 03:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
ex: it checks around on an A-rag flop with a flush draw on the board and i bet out on a blank turn trying to buy figuring everyone as week. I get called by the button, who then checks it down with me to show down a pair of A7 for a pair of aces. Why did he not bet his pair of aces?? I don't know, but I feel even stupider then he is when I get myself in these situations

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't do it myself all that often, since I've become a fold/push monkey, but notice this happens most often when the bluffer is not betting nearly enough. Some people will call small bets, even if the pot is tiny, with low pair to the river. It's annoying/scary/frustrating, but if you're going to try to steal a pot, especially when the blinds are low, you'll often have to bet a lot of your stack (which is why I personally don't bother).

beeyjay
05-19-2005, 03:59 AM
Yea I know exactly what you mean. I feel like the 55s are a ridiculous cross section of players ranging from total morons (who may just have sufficient money for that level from a real job or whatever) to fairly intelligent players that are capable of thinking and making more complex plays who have probably played their way up the ladder or been playing some type of poker for a while. Overall this seems to make the games fairly hard because you don't have any idea what level your opponent is thinking on. I'd be interested to hear your take on the hand you originally posted and the outcome of it.

beeyjay
05-19-2005, 04:05 AM
I feel like the biggest "problem" ("" because I do realize longterm it is actually a benefit but in a single hand can be a problem) is that a lot of lower level players will call far more than they will bet. This essentially makes bluffing useless. As I said this is less of a problem because when you have AK they're calling you the whole way with A7 but it forces you to play a very ABC game because they don't understand what your bluff is representing. If you bet a lot or a little they're right there calling with you.

raptor517
05-19-2005, 05:40 AM
question 1: why lead so much at the flop? what do you think is going to give you action on a 100 bet? K10? durrrr.. no.

question 2: you are facing a call and a min raise. do you think J8 is good here? i dont, but there are a lot of donks out there so who knows.

question 3: (statement really) this is a tricky hand to play. you are oop with a lot of limpers. good check next time.

holla

Newt_Buggs
05-19-2005, 06:27 AM
I'm glad that someone mentioned the initial flop bet since this is something I wasn't too sure about. Normally I check here, but with this heavy drawing board I decided to bet out strong but still let every draw, K, and whatever junk people are playing to come along. Ideally if they call and another /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits then its an easy checkfold.

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think is going to give you action on a 100 bet? K10?

[/ QUOTE ]
if they are stupid enough to limp K10, K3, K anything for that matter then yes, I do expect them to call often, although not always.

as for when the action went back to me I paused for a long time before pushing all in. The call could easily be a draw, and the raise someone protecting his king. Obviously, either of these hands could also be higher jacks but I just didn't feel like I had enough information to justify folding this. Calling lets in the draws, and raising implies pushing. Of course, the mini raiser had a higher jack, luckily i luckboxed big time and the turn was an 8 /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Didn't I say in my other thread also that this game is easy? Oh well, hopefully some day I will get good enough to make these laydowns


oh yeah, as for checking the flop, lets look at some scenarios:
1. it checks around and the draws get a free card (bad)
2. a king bets out and i raise all in and he folds (atleast it got some more money in the pot)
3. a higher jack bets out and i lose my stack

betting out the flop:
1. it gets called around by the draws, who probably aren't getting implied odds since I won't pay out to a flush and hopefully not to the straight.
2. A king calls, making a nice donation or raises and my rereaise either takes down a big pot when he folds or takes his entire stack.
3. what happened- a jack raises and i lose my entire stack

maybe the kings are stupid and not raising here, but then again maybe they aren't even betting when it gets check to them as well. anyway, its way too late and i should have been asleep 3 hours ago

raptor517
05-19-2005, 06:34 AM
here is the problem with leading out. when you arent good enough to MAKE a laydown in a spot like this, you should be playing your hand VERY slowly, and risking as few chips as possible. miniraises with a bet and a call are NOT a king trying to 'protect' his hand. it is strength. period. trying to get value. im not saying you ARENT good enough to make a fold here, as maybe you are. however, i think you might want to consider playing a weak hand like this quite slowly. with the amount of people seeing this flop, you very easily could have second best. holla

Newt_Buggs
05-19-2005, 02:02 PM
heres the problem that I'm having with checking though. Lets say that I check, it checks to the button who then bets t100. How am I in a better situation now? I have to risk a lot of chips to raise, or make a very weak call. It still seems to me like betting out t100, getting a call and a mini raise and recognizing that "miniraises with a bet and a call are NOT a king trying to 'protect' his hand" and being able to get away from the hand with only t100 is the best way.

btw, I've found this thread very interesting and would like to thank everyone who has contributed.

adanthar
05-19-2005, 02:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
heres the problem that I'm having with checking though. Lets say that I check, it checks to the button who then bets t100. How am I in a better situation now? I have to risk a lot of chips to raise, or make a very weak call. It still seems to me like betting out t100, getting a call and a mini raise and recognizing that "miniraises with a bet and a call are NOT a king trying to 'protect' his hand" and being able to get away from the hand with only t100 is the best way.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the button bets, you have a clear call, simply because you still have no information on the other 4 people. It's not a weak call, because free cards aren't all that scary.

If the guy behind you bets and gets 2 callers, you can safely fold. If he's raised, make a decision (probably fold.) Etc.

As it stands, your bet told you that there's a caller (who could have a flush draw, QT or Kx) and a minraiser, who *probably* has a jack but might just be a clown (contrary to what raptor says, in the 50's they're not nearly good enough to just assume jack.) Part of the reason this bet sucks so much was because it was also too strong and basically said 'hey guys, I have anything except a jack, raise me with air'. Well, you've been raised and now can't really play back at them.

Personally, having misclicked and bet out (and bet this much on top of it), I'd fold here and kick myself when they turned out to have a flush draw and KQ.