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rybones
12-09-2004, 10:58 AM
roughly speaking I know how to figure out pot odds, That said I have trouble doing this math quickly while playing. any advice? is there some trick that gets close to the exact odds but it is quicker and when used in combination with good reads works well?

Thanks for any help,

ryan

gaming_mouse
12-09-2004, 03:45 PM
rybones,

To figure out what odds the pot is laying you, you just divide the total amount of the pot by the size of the current bet you must make to call.

For example, if there is \$100 in the pot, and it is \$10 to you to call, the pot is laying you 10:1.

gm

rybones
12-09-2004, 04:19 PM
sure, but how do I figue out the odds of my hand hitting? Again, using your example

there is 90 in the pot,
the other guy bets 10 and now it is 10:1 odd for my call.

the Board is Jh, 3c, 7h and I hold A,Th

If I put the other guy on the J, I know I have 9 clean outs and a possibe 12 outs: the 9 hearts and the 3 aces so at the table I need to devide the 12 by the 21 cards left (assuming a full table and a burn card). If I have done the math write I have a 57% chance of hitting a card that helps me amd I am only calling 10%.
Now two things: A) I don't know that I did that math right and B) it took me 3 minutes to work through it. Now in a ring limit game I wouldn't actually need to work through this, I instinctively know I have the odds to call that \$10 bet.

However, what if I am in a NL freezout tourny and I need to call t575 into a pot of t935 and I know I have 8 outs. I can do the math for you now, but at a table with 1 minute or less to act, should I just round the pot and bet amounts to get 10:5 or 50% and then "well 8 goes in to 21 about 3.5 times so 35% and then fold" Additionally, to figure the pot odds do I devide 575/935 or as the pot will actuall be 1510 if I call do I devide 575/1510? Either way, I when I do the actually math the odds might me much closer to a call if I do not round?

does any of this make sense or am I just rambling? I guess what I am ask is: is it ok to just round? (and even there I am worried about my math).

Thanks to anyone who helps and sorry for the lame newbie type questions.

Ryan

therockofgibraltar
12-09-2004, 04:34 PM
I'm not quite sure did I get your question right but I'll give it a shot.

You just remember the odds!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Just calculate them once, write them down, keep them with you when you play and in a week you you have memorized it!

For example (flop):
2 outer is 22,5-1
4 = 10,75-1
9 = 4,2-1
12 = 3-1
and so on.

When playing limit you can't calculate what is the probability that you will hit if you go to river. That is more NL stuff when all-in.

So when you have flush draw on flop you compare 4,2-1 to the pot.
And then on turn you compare it again. Sure, the chance is a little better, about 4,1-1 but don't worry about that.

If you WANT to know what are your chances hitting your hand by the river, just multiply outs by four when on flop. It is a pretty good approximation!
So flush draw (9 outer) is about 36 % to hit by river.

With these advices you should be able to do the calculations in 10 seconds /images/graemlins/smile.gif (after you calculate your outs)

Mike Haven
12-09-2004, 06:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
there is 90 in the pot,
the other guy bets 10 and now it is 10:1 odd for my call.

the Board is Jh, 3c, 7h and I hold A,Th

If I put the other guy on the J, I know I have 9 clean outs and a possibe 12 outs: the 9 hearts and the 3 aces so at the table I need to devide the 12 by the 21 cards left (assuming a full table and a burn card). If I have done the math write I have a 57% chance of hitting a card that helps me amd I am only calling 10%.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you have 12 outs after the flop you divide the 12 (outs) by 47 (unknown cards, not the 21 that are left to be dealt), so you have a 25% chance of hitting on the turn

however, i think it's easier and quicker to divide the 47 (unknown cards) by the 12 (outs) = 3.9, and take away 1 = 2.9, which gives you the odds of hitting on the turn, 2.9 to 1, which you then compare with the pot odds of 10 to 1 (in this case)

another example: if you have an open-ended straight after the flop you divide 47 by 8 = 5.9, take away 1 = 4.9, which gives you 4.9 to 1 odds of hitting on the turn

if you miss, you divide 46 by 8 = 5.75, take away 1 = 4.75, which gives you 4.75 to 1 odds of hitting on the river

of course, in reality, and for ease, you would normally be ok with saying 47 divided by 8 is 6 minus 1 is 5 to 1 odds of hitting

pocket3s
12-09-2004, 07:04 PM
After the flop multiply your outs by 4. In this case 12 x 4 =48 percent. The 10-1 means that your putting in 1/11, roughly 10 percent, into the pot. So 48 &gt; 10, so you should call. After the turn you multiply your number of outs by 2 to see what the chances are you will hit your flush.

gaming_mouse
12-09-2004, 08:23 PM
Ryan,

I'm guessing that this particular example is just for illustration, and that you would like general advice on solving these types of problems.

For that, honestly, the best thing you can do is read and re-read SSH. It explains the basic concepts as well as anything I've read, and it has tons of examples.

Cheers,
gm

AngryCola
12-09-2004, 10:25 PM
Pot Odds Made Easy by Lou Krieger (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=13913)

It's not perfect, but it gets you very close to the real numbers.

rybones
12-09-2004, 11:59 PM
This is excelent, Thank you! Now I just need to commit it to memory. I asked this earlier, but I still have not seen a clear answer. In order to figure odds correctly, do I only look at the size of the pot before I bet or do I also figure in what the pot will be after I call?

i.e. pot was 400, villian bets 200 making the pot 600:
my odds are now 600:200 or 6:2

OR Should it be:

pot was 400, villian bets 200, if I call the pot will
be 800: the odds are then 8:2

which is correct?

P.S. I also asked another odds question earlier in a different thread. If anyone knows of another cool article or link that answers that question I would be much abbliged.

Thanks again,

Ryan

AngryCola
12-10-2004, 12:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i.e. pot was 400, villian bets 200 making the pot 600:
my odds are now 600:200 or 6:2

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the correct way to go about it, but it reduces to 3:1.

To reduce the odds to the lowest form, divide the number on the right by itself, and then divide the number on the left by the number on the right.

200 / 200 = 1
600 / 200 = 3 = 3:1

By the way, there isn't that much to commit to memory from the article by Lou Krieger.

(Outs * 2) + 2 = appx. single street probability.

gaming_mouse
12-10-2004, 12:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i.e. pot was 400, villian bets 200 making the pot 600:
my odds are now 600:200 or 6:2

OR Should it be:

pot was 400, villian bets 200, if I call the pot will
be 800: the odds are then 8:2

[/ QUOTE ]

As for your other question, what is it? Your other post was kinda long with long paragraphs and I don't want to search through it guessing what question you mean. But paste it in and I'll be glad to answer.

gm

rybones
12-10-2004, 12:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i.e. pot was 400, villian bets 200 making the pot 600:
my odds are now 600:200 or 6:2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is the correct way to go about it, but it reduces to 3:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

see this is what I mean when I say my math skills stink when I am hurring. All I can say is "da ... I'm an idiot." reducing is something you learn in what 2nd grade? At least you all know you will be in the money when you play me.

Ryan

rybones
12-10-2004, 12:24 AM
what I really want to know is if there is a good article or cheat sheat that shows the odds of things like:

odds of anyone at a full table having A,A

odds of anyone at a full table having A,A or K,K when someone else has Q,Q

in essence I have looking for a confidence #

Anyone have such a thing?

Chairman Wood
12-10-2004, 12:32 AM
All of that and more! (http://www.poker1.com/mcu/mculib_odds.asp)

deacsoft
12-10-2004, 12:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Pot Odds Made Easy by Lou Krieger (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=13913)

It's not perfect, but it gets you very close to the real numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should be getting a cut from Mr. Krieger for as many times as I've posted this link. A good article though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

gaming_mouse
12-10-2004, 12:40 AM
Chairman Wood's link may have some of what you want. But for things like "At least one person at a table having AA," I don't think you'd find a cheat-sheet that had that (it's too specific). That particular one -- and others like it -- have been answered many times on this forum, though. In fact, I answered that particular one this morning (scroll to final post):

You should note that knowing these kinds of things is not particularly useful at the poker table. Knowing how to count outs and figure pot odds is much more helpful.

But it's a good exercise.

gm

EDIT: My bad. Chairman Wood's link does have the aces stuff

AngryCola
12-10-2004, 12:44 AM
Hey gm,

Could you tag your URL like this (http://google.com) before the edit period expires?

Always try to save us from the pain of horizontal scrolling. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

gaming_mouse
12-10-2004, 12:47 AM
done. didn't even know about that feature. thanks.

alittle
12-10-2004, 06:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]

(Outs * 2) + 2 = appx. single street probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be Captain Obvious, but isn't this why we are posting on the "2+2" forums?

That should make the outs * 2 + 2 formula pretty darned easy to remember.