PDA

View Full Version : PLO8 preflop


Nate tha' Great
11-17-2004, 06:41 AM
A'ight, I'm giving PLO8 a try at the Party Poker $25 buy-in level. My postflop instincts actually seem to be okay, but I'm completely lost when it comes to preflop strategy. Can somebody give me some basic pointers, like the five most important preflop concepts? Please assume that I'm a retard when it comes to this stuff.

thanks,
Nate

EDIT: To clarify, I'm mainly thinking about limping versus raising decisions. I have a basic idea of what constitutes a playable O8B hand.

Iceman
11-17-2004, 09:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A'ight, I'm giving PLO8 a try at the Party Poker $25 buy-in level. My postflop instincts actually seem to be okay, but I'm completely lost when it comes to preflop strategy. Can somebody give me some basic pointers, like the five most important preflop concepts? Please assume that I'm a retard when it comes to this stuff.

thanks,
Nate

EDIT: To clarify, I'm mainly thinking about limping versus raising decisions. I have a basic idea of what constitutes a playable O8B hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should almost never raise preflop. If you can get all-in with something like AA2x, then do so. But otherwise, hands run close in value preflop so that raises usually gain little or nothing in EV terms, and you don't want to knock out weaker hands that might give you action later. The real money in this game is made postflop.

Nate tha' Great
11-17-2004, 09:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A'ight, I'm giving PLO8 a try at the Party Poker $25 buy-in level. My postflop instincts actually seem to be okay, but I'm completely lost when it comes to preflop strategy. Can somebody give me some basic pointers, like the five most important preflop concepts? Please assume that I'm a retard when it comes to this stuff.

thanks,
Nate

EDIT: To clarify, I'm mainly thinking about limping versus raising decisions. I have a basic idea of what constitutes a playable O8B hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should almost never raise preflop. If you can get all-in with something like AA2x, then do so. But otherwise, hands run close in value preflop so that raises usually gain little or nothing in EV terms, and you don't want to knock out weaker hands that might give you action later. The real money in this game is made postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if I have a good multiway hand like A23x double-suited and I'm on the Button? I've had some success raising something like half the pot in these cases against bad, loose opponents (e.g. most everyone in the really easy games that I'm playing) who will call and then get themselves potstuck.

bugstud
11-17-2004, 09:41 AM
I just don't like plo8 for these reasons. I think preflop play varies a lot from LL to higher limit and SH as well.

Yads
11-17-2004, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You should almost never raise preflop. If you can get all-in with something like AA2x, then do so. But otherwise, hands run close in value preflop so that raises usually gain little or nothing in EV terms, and you don't want to knock out weaker hands that might give you action later. The real money in this game is made postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not listen to this terrible advice. Omaha8 hands do not run close together in value, the top hands outperform average hands on an incredible scale. You want to raise with good scooping hands or really strong one way hands. You want to charge people that are playing chump hands a premium.

nicky g
11-17-2004, 12:19 PM
I lean more to what Iceman said. The hands do run close together in value preflop. That doesn't mean you should play any hand - you should play the hands that are easist to play well post flop. But all-in preflop a very good hand has nothing like the advantage over a crappy hand as a good hold'em hand does over a bad one, or even a good Omaha high hand. I wouldn't advocate never raising, but more rarely than in other games. Especially in a 50x buyin game, where tow raise can commit you. The main play in PLO8 is on the flop and turn.

One decent place to raise is in the cutoff or near it - position is important in this game so it's not a bad idea to try to buy it.

Yads
11-17-2004, 02:50 PM
Yes maybe the top hands run closer together in value, because unlike holdem Omaha really doesn't have the equivalent of the top 5 like holdem ie (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs), but a hand like AA2K single suited will beat the crap out of random junk hands like QJ82
it will scoop 3/4 of the time, win high more than 7/10 of the time and win low almost 85% of the time. It's ev is 7:3. And you would not raise this hand? Whereas you compare a good hand like AQs vs a random junk hand like 79o, it has even less equity than the above scenario about 2:1.
Yet who wouldn't raise AQs if facing no raises?

dogsballs
11-17-2004, 03:04 PM
I'm with nicky g here. good post.

I very rarely raise since I don't like to give away my A2 likelihoodness (unless it's super premium). I'll put in little bump raises in LP with various geod hands...As4s56 etc. Build a small pot and mebbe buy position.

Iceman
11-17-2004, 03:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should almost never raise preflop. If you can get all-in with something like AA2x, then do so. But otherwise, hands run close in value preflop so that raises usually gain little or nothing in EV terms, and you don't want to knock out weaker hands that might give you action later. The real money in this game is made postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not listen to this terrible advice. Omaha8 hands do not run close together in value, the top hands outperform average hands on an incredible scale.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only true in showdown simulations against large fields of random hands. It's not true at all in real game conditions - shorthanded fields with mostly good hands.

[ QUOTE ]
You want to raise with good scooping hands or really strong one way hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to narrow the field when you have a one-way hand? Getting it heads-up when you have a one-way hand is a disaster. And if you had a scoop hand, why knock out hands that are much weaker in at least one direction?

[ QUOTE ]
You want to charge people that are playing chump hands a premium.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you to make sure they'll stay in the pot so they'll potentially give you lots of action with second-best hands postflop, not risk knocking them out just to maybe gain a small amount of EV. If your raise gets rid of most of the chump hands, one premium hand is rarely much better than other premium hands, and one or two randomish hands don't do that badly in most cases. Even a raised preflop pot is insignificant compared to the potential win postflop from loose callers.

Yads
11-17-2004, 03:25 PM
It's the same reason you want to raise with good hands in holdem. You want to get your money in when you have the best of it. Do you ever slow play pocket rockets in holdem? No, because you have the best of it, so you want hands that do not have the best of it to put money in the pot. So why would you slowplay great hands in Omaha?
Omaha unlike holdem is more about preflop hand selection than it is about post flop play. Not sure if you agree with this, but whatever. So why not get your money in when you have by far the best of it, pre flop? Obviously you don't necessarily want to raise from early position just to end up heads up with a hand that has a good chance of beating you (like you pointed out). But if you can trap players that have already put in a bet with junk hands, why on earth would you not raise?

Acesover8s
11-17-2004, 04:31 PM
Nearly every post in this thread is confused. Let's start with some facts:

1) Hands in Omaha/8 run a lot closer in value than they do in holdem. Compare AK34 to AQ25, heads up.

2) Just because something is "close in value" does not mean that you should not push its value. QQ vs AK in holdem also run close in value, but in a cash game, I want my opponent to call me with the AK every time.

3) Raising preflop in O/8 (or any game) does not commit you to put another chip in the pot. If you cannot get away from AA56 on a 89T flop then there are deeper problems in your game.

4) Most of your profit in PLO/8 comes from your postflop play. If your raises are giving away your hand values then you are either raising too few hands, or too many (for your weak-tight style of play). Raising allows you to:

4a) purchase position
4b) confuse opposition
4c) build a pot with the best hand
4d) gain momentum
4e) clean up outs
4f) clear out extra opponents

I'm sure I have missed a few things here, but one final point I would like to make is that in PLO/8 when raising with good hands you will often receive calls from hands that are in trouble from your hand, for example, when you raise in position with AK24, the guy who limped in EP with A297 is still coming. If you can make better push/pull judgements postflop, you will be able to punish him for a quarter of his stack on boards like 37K86 that you would be unable to push as strongly with against a field of opposition.

Iceman
11-17-2004, 04:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's the same reason you want to raise with good hands in holdem. You want to get your money in when you have the best of it. Do you ever slow play pocket rockets in holdem? No, because you have the best of it, so you want hands that do not have the best of it to put money in the pot. So why would you slowplay great hands in Omaha?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that in holdem AA destroys even other premium hands, while in Omaha even the best hands only have a small advantage shorthanded against other legitimate hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Omaha unlike holdem is more about preflop hand selection than it is about post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. Preflop is less important in Omaha since the flop in Omaha has a greater effect on hand values. Although in all forms of ring game big-bet poker, hand selection is much less important than postflop play.

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure if you agree with this, but whatever. So why not get your money in when you have by far the best of it, pre flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you don't have far the best of it.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you don't necessarily want to raise from early position just to end up heads up with a hand that has a good chance of beating you (like you pointed out). But if you can trap players that have already put in a bet with junk hands, why on earth would you not raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really trapping them - run some simulations and you'll see how seemingly weak hands don't do that badly in 2-4 handed fields even when they're facing AA and A2-type hands. You can't really trap people in this game until the flop comes down, since even premium hands miss the flop so often.

Yads
11-17-2004, 04:52 PM
Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because you view Omaha as a post flop game, where as I view it as pre flop/flop game.

Yads
11-17-2004, 05:53 PM
Oh and btw I ran the following simulation:
As Ad 2d Kc
Qs Jd 8c 2h
Th 9s 8h 7h
Kh Ks 4d 3c

here are the results:
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 376992 enumerated boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Kc Ad 2d 76318 125225 251584 183 138611 11088 5364 0.406
Qs 8c Jd 2h 37688 64345 312602 45 18311 131784 4968 0.162
9s Th 8h 7h 41554 125416 251576 0 16195 120863 0 0.241
Ks 4d Kh 3h 35278 61823 315031 138 55575 63856 468 0.191

Ok so maybe the hand I've listed doesn't crush the other hands as bad as AA would crush random hands in HE, but i think it will pick up a piece of the pot often enough to justify playing this hand aggressively.

Iceman
11-17-2004, 06:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and btw I ran the following simulation:
As Ad 2d Kc
Qs Jd 8c 2h
Th 9s 8h 7h
Kh Ks 4d 3c

here are the results:
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 376992 enumerated boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Kc Ad 2d 76318 125225 251584 183 138611 11088 5364 0.406
Qs 8c Jd 2h 37688 64345 312602 45 18311 131784 4968 0.162
9s Th 8h 7h 41554 125416 251576 0 16195 120863 0 0.241
Ks 4d Kh 3h 35278 61823 315031 138 55575 63856 468 0.191

Ok so maybe the hand I've listed doesn't crush the other hands as bad as AA would crush random hands in HE, but i think it will pick up a piece of the pot often enough to justify playing this hand aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even the bad players in Party's $100 PLO-8 won't call raises with QJ82 or T987. AA2x is the best 1% of hands, on a par with having AA/KK in holdem. Talking about the far more common AAxy or A2xy, they don't do nearly as well, especially once you eliminate garbage hands from the field.

bugstud
11-17-2004, 06:35 PM
If you put in someone with a reasonable low draw it gets much worse

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=614819
pokenum -o8 as ad 2d kc - qh jh tc td - ac 2c 4c 9h - kh ks 4d 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 376992 enumerated boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Kc Ad 2d 35620 113550 256898 6544 0 31584 156320 0.306
Tc Td Qh Jh 65650 142084 234892 16 0 0 0 0.276
Ac 4c 2c 9h 24816 48582 319870 8540 77080 3872 158336 0.295
Ks 3c 4d Kh 20692 64220 310737 2035 7736 137320 2208 0.124

KuQuAT
11-17-2004, 07:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
4) Most of your profit in PLO/8 comes from your postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is key.

I'm not a great PL08 player, but many of the posters seem to have forgotten that it's Pot Limit. I've seen many many hands where the betting goes geometric on the flop/turn/river and the draws/undersets/quarters keep on calling. Pre-flop raising can chase those folks off - something you may not want to do.

Let's take an abstract example:
6 see the flop for 1 unit [ pot = 6u ]
1/2 pot bet on the flop, called by 2 [ pot = 6u + 9u = 15u ]
1/2 pot bet on the turn, called by 1 [ pot = 15u + 15u = 30u ]
At the river, the pot is 30u, of which you contributed 11.5u

Let's contrast that with a pre-flop raise that knocks out 3 players...

3 see the flop for 2 each [ pot = 6u ]
Same pot, but now you've spent twice as much and have eliminated half the chasers.

1/2 pot bet on the flop...
Here, you may have eliminated one of your callers from the first example
...called by 1 [ pot = 6u + 6u = 12u ]
1/2 pot bet on the turn, called by 1 [ pot = 12u + 12u = 24u ]
Now you've a smaller pot and have spent 11u, almost the same amount.

It gets worse if you consider full pot bets instead of half-pot bets.

The danger, of course, is that you get hunted down by one of those chasers who would have folded to a pre-flop raise. Avoiding that requires skill & care.

Another danger is that you become the chaser. One nice thing about larger fields, though, is that they can offer protection to your draws, because weak players don't like betting heavily into a large field. An aggressive player will eat you up, but otherwise post-flop tightness will be your friend.

gergery
11-17-2004, 07:30 PM
I agree with acesover8s and will add:

1) You want to raise preflop in PLO8 with hands that will win more than their fair share, same as in holdem. So hands like AA23 on the button should normally raise if everyone will call. Hands like KQJT doublesuited will get a highflop and great chance to scoop ~30% of the time, so should raise with position if 3+ limpers will call, etc.

2) Raising to isolate has more value than it does in holdem. Hands in O8 run closer in value than they do in Holdem WHEN HEADS UP. This means if you can raise to isolate vs. one other player and knock a bunch of limpers out, it can often be worth it, particularly if you can put the opponent on a specific hand like A2. example might be 4 limpers then the button raises, and then you reraise in BB with a hand that plays well vs. A2xx

3) You generally donít want to raise just to bluff. In holdem, if youíre the preflop raiser, you generally bet most flops, which is because most people miss most flops and will often fold. But in O8, with 6 two-card combos instead of 1, someone has connected with most flops, so generally, trying to bluff if you missed is not as good an idea as it is in holdem. If some of the holdem converts try the same strategy and meet with failure, they may mistakenly conclude that raising preflop is bad.

4) You generally play tighter preflop in O8 than you do in holdem, so in that sense I guess preflop decision might be more important, because time you play it takes on more meaning since there are fewer of them. But you still make more of your money postflop, and postflop decisions are still more important to your earn rate particularly in multiway pots.

Iceman
11-17-2004, 08:59 PM
here's an example where A2 has the worst of it:

As Qc 2d 9h 0.174
Tc Td Qh Jh 0.247
Ac 4c 2c 9d 0.303
Ks 3c 4d Kh 0.276

and here's an example where AA has the worst of it:

As Qc Ad 9h 0.161
Tc Td Qh Jh 0.230
Ac 4c 2c 9d 0.409
Ks 3c 4d Kh 0.200

grandgnu
11-18-2004, 10:29 AM
Been playing the $0.25/$0.50 Pot Limit Omaha hi/lo on PokerStars, turned 10 bucks into 80 bucks the other day.

I like to have a lot more players in the pot. If I can flop the nut low or a strong high then usually you'll get a number of players calling with 2nd and 3rd best hands and you'll get paid off nicely.

Pre-flop hand selection is great, but if you're holding A/2/2/3 and the flop comes down K/J/9 you've just wasted your pot-sized raise for a loss. If someone else raises pre-flop and I hold a strong hand I'll call. But I don't see the point in really building the pot until you've seen the flop.

There are plenty of poor players who will call with hands that are beat and why would you want to chase them out of the pots and risk losing their money?

Heads-up in Hold Em is fine in my opinion (since getting 5 callers to my all-in after a pre-flop raise by another player wound up busting my A/A) But with PL Omaha Hi/Lo I want more people in that pot paying me off. Plus, I want the pots hitting over 20 bucks so even if I fold out I can earn Frequent Player Points on someone elses play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yads
11-18-2004, 12:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
here's an example where A2 has the worst of it:

As Qc 2d 9h 0.174
Tc Td Qh Jh 0.247
Ac 4c 2c 9d 0.303
Ks 3c 4d Kh 0.276


[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes because the 2nd A2 hand (Ac 4c 2c 9d) is by far a better hand the first one so it should be rasing pre flop.

[ QUOTE ]

and here's an example where AA has the worst of it:

As Qc Ad 9h 0.161
Tc Td Qh Jh 0.230
Ac 4c 2c 9d 0.409
Ks 3c 4d Kh 0.200

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again due to the fact that the first ace has no chance to scoop the superior hand (Ac 4c 2c 9d) has by far the best of it and should raise pre flop. I don't really understand how these examples prove your point that you shouldn't raise pre flop, unless you mean that you shouldn't raise preflop with something mediocre like As Qc 2d 9h. In which case I totally agree with you.

jon_1van
11-18-2004, 01:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
and here's an example where AA has the worst of it:

As Qc Ad 9h 0.161
Tc Td Qh Jh 0.230
Ac 4c 2c 9d 0.409
Ks 3c 4d Kh 0.200

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very interesting observation

Iceman
11-18-2004, 05:00 PM
My point is that you can't be sure your hand has good value preflop unless you have a real monster like AA2x (and even then I'd avoid raising in order to sucker in weaker hands). And even if your AAxy or A2xy has good showdown value, they can be tough to play properly on the flop - unimproved AA or an A2 low draw should usually be folded on the flop, regardless of their theoretical value. I'd prefer to get in cheaply and then if I do hit a good flop, have a better chance to get actual action on it.

Yads
11-18-2004, 05:37 PM
Ofcourse you can't be sure you have by far the best of it preflop especially when you have a mediocre hand like:
As Qc 2d 9h. It would be atrocious to raise this hand since it's high hand value sucks and it has no countrfeit protection for low, yet you forgot to mention these details about this "powerhouse" hand. And as for the AA hand, once again, it is not a very good AA hand, since it only really has one way to win in a multi way pot, that's to hit an Ace, even then it's not exactly a good thing since a low might be on the board as well. It would be absolutely wrong to raise this hand unless you could get it heads up.
Look I'm not saying you have to raise every A2xx and AAxx hand you get. You want to raise the hands that will scoop and 3/4 the pot more. That's hands like A2xx with suitedness, AAxx double suited, etc. Not getting more money in the pot pre flop with these hands is silly.