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View Full Version : Moral Dillema on PartyPoker


Enon
11-07-2004, 08:37 AM
A few months ago, I was playing in a $100 buy-in NL cash game on party and one guy in the room was just moving in preflop literally 80% of the time and rebought for the full $100 about 10 times in the course of 20 minutes.

He claimed to be under the influence of heavy anti-depressants because of the stress he was under due to the death of his wife's newborn infant. I believed the authenticity of his situation because he was able to quickly give the names of the drugs he was taking, as well as refer us to a website with the heartbreaking account of his wife's pregnancy and the tragic death of the fetus.

Some people in the game obviously felt guilty and tried convincing him to stop throwing his money away. I attempted to do this too, but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match. Our 'competition' lasted about 50 hands before I cleared him out of his $1700. The maniac would cap every street with little to nothing and then when he finally busted, he begged me to transfer him some more money, because his weekly deposity limit was up.

As I took a taxi back to my hotel after my session, I felt a little guilty about taking his money. It felt too easy. If he would have played halfway decently, or at least put up some sort of fight, I would have felt like I earned it. Instead, I felt more like I robbed the guy.

Would you take this guys money after finding out what I've shared with you? At what point would you stop taking his money if party didnt put a cap on the amount he could transfer from his bank account.

chesspain
11-07-2004, 09:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A few months ago, I was playing in a $100 buy-in NL cash game on party and one guy in the room was just moving in preflop literally 80% of the time and rebought for the full $100 about 10 times in the course of 20 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match. Our 'competition' lasted about 50 hands before I cleared him out of his $1700.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
As I took a taxi back to my hotel after my session, I felt a little guilty about taking his money.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to think that before I read the last part I had almost believed this story.

Enon
11-07-2004, 10:12 AM
I was returning from a friend's house in N.Y. to the hotel where my family was staying.

Completely true story btw.

Easy E
11-07-2004, 11:50 AM
anyone stupid enough to do this deserves the wake-up call of getting busted

chesspain
11-07-2004, 12:10 PM
Assuming this story is true, I think it was pretty low of you to challenge him to a HU match. If he is truly in crisis, and wants to play to drown his sorrows, I don't see anything wrong with gambling it up with him at a full table, where he is fair game for anyone, and where he can at least try to have his escapism and possibly not lose too much too quickly. But to drag him aside specifically for the purpose of raping him sounds pretty disgusting to me.

Remember...what goes around in this world comes around.

Mayhap
11-07-2004, 12:28 PM
Amen

D.H.
11-07-2004, 12:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
anyone stupid enough to do this deserves the wake-up call of getting busted

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid people deserve trouble? You would think that they have a hard enough time anyway...

busguy
11-07-2004, 12:50 PM
What he said.

Anyone who would stoop to take FURTHER advantage of a situation like that is a scumbag. Plain and simple.

/images/graemlins/mad.gif busguy

busguy
11-07-2004, 12:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]


So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my favorite part. If this guy needs help . . let me REALLY help him. Way too be a good person and look out for the weak.

[ QUOTE ]
I felt more like I robbed the guy

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah . . . that is because you DID rob him.

You sir . . . are a clown and I hope as chesspain says above, that what goes around . . comes around, turns out to be true for you.

tripdad
11-07-2004, 02:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
due to the death of his wife's newborn infant.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
heartbreaking account of his wife's pregnancy and the tragic death of the fetus.

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all, a newborn infant is NOT a fetus, he/she is a human being.

secondly, maybe to clear your conscience (what you did was not honorable), you could donate $1700.00 to a charity that helps families going through the death of a child, or one whose purpose is to reduce infant mortality. Ronald McDonald House? any other suggestions posters?

cheers!

Kurn, son of Mogh
11-07-2004, 02:58 PM
I, for one, never believe anything someone says at the poker table. Now I wouldn't have taken this guy to a HU table, but that's because I believe it's more beneficial to my long-term win rate to let someone lose gradually.

What does surprise me is how many folks here are taking the tilter's story as the truth.

tripdad
11-07-2004, 05:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I, for one, never believe anything someone says at the poker table. Now I wouldn't have taken this guy to a HU table, but that's because I believe it's more beneficial to my long-term win rate to let someone lose gradually.

What does surprise me is how many folks here are taking the tilter's story as the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

the poster said he believd the story to be true. all responses, therefore, should consider it to be fact for the purposes of discussion.

cheers!

liquidboss
11-07-2004, 05:26 PM
Assuming this story is true, which is a longshot, I would say take the money and run. Poker, and especially online poker, is about taking advantage of weak players and people making mistakes. This is no different... Just because he has had a tragedy in is life doesn't mean you shouldn't play with him. If your morals are so high that you can't take money from someone who is playing poorly then you should choose another game.

twang
11-07-2004, 05:29 PM
Assuming the story was true: He let you understand that he was in a terrible crisis and had no business in a poker room. Knowing that, you took him aside and raped him. Whereīs the dilemma part of the story?

/twang

busguy
11-07-2004, 05:49 PM
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.

I for one think there is a MASSIVE difference. I probably wouldn't get up from a full table and stop playing but I would NEVER pray (whether or not the thought crossed my mind) on someone like that.

my 2 cents.

/images/graemlins/frown.gif busguy

mmcd
11-07-2004, 06:21 PM
There's no "dilema" or anything here. The guy is playing bad, and your job is take as much of his money as you possibly can. Just business, nothing personal. It doesn't matter what his background story is or whether it's true or not. All that matters is that you got the job done.

I'm surprised so many of the poker players here are so soft regarding things like this. What ever happened to that old addage, "I'd bust my grandmother if she played a pot with me".

If presented with the opportunity to take a tilters money, I suggest you take it, because I assure you, if you ever get screwed up in the head and start going off for lots of money, there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't think twice about taking it from you.

Mayhap
11-07-2004, 06:29 PM
Yes! This is a critical point.
/M

Glenn
11-07-2004, 06:42 PM
" Now I wouldn't have taken this guy to a HU table, but that's because I believe it's more beneficial to my long-term win rate to let someone lose gradually."

This is a serious error in judgment. While it is true that is better for the poker community in general if people lose slowly and come back for more rather than have a single traumatic experience, you are passing up too much in this spot. Party Poker has over 50,000 players at a time. The chance that you will ever see this player again is small. You have a chance right now to guarantee yourself $1700 (or whatever it is). This is something like 50 hours of expectation. There is no way I can fathom that passing on playing this player will net you more than that. In fact, it will not even come close. Maybe in a cardroom with 3 tables, where he could come back every week and lose to you, but will avoid you if you beat him too badly, this is the best strategy. On Party Poker, there is only one EV choice, and that is play until your eyes bleed.

A_C_Slater
11-07-2004, 06:54 PM
Pity not the fallen. Ye, I am not for them, I never knew them. Strike low and hard and to hell with them. Conquer.

D.H.
11-07-2004, 07:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...I suggest you take it, because I assure you, if you ever get screwed up in the head and start going off for lots of money, there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't think twice about taking it from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the logic...

Just because there are lots of people out there who would steal your car if don't lock it doesn't mean that you should run around stealing cars.

Michael Davis
11-07-2004, 07:53 PM
I would have done the same thing. I'm not going to defend my point-of-view, but give me a break, this guy is just some random awful player and you guys don't want to take his money.

-Michael

Enon
11-07-2004, 08:15 PM
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses so far, including the really harsh ones. As I already said, before and after I took this guys money, I felt really conflicted about my choice (which shows I'm not a completely heartless a**hole, right?) and that’s why I posted here.

After thinking this through, I can't get away from the fact that tons of my profits in poker have come from compulsive gamblers and other people who gambled with money they couldn't afford to lose. It is a sad fact that poker players are predatory in nature (who doesn't change tables because a known donator has shown up, or offers a heads up challenge to weak player in a full ring game) and we generally don't consider it our duty to make sure the donators will not be hurt by taking their money.

What made me decide to go ahead with the heads up match was his insistence that the money he was playing with was hardly a drop in the bucket compared with his executive salary. Had this not been the case, I would not have played him heads up and would have persisted in my efforts to stop him in the full NL game.

So, considering it was money that he could afford to lose, why wasn't my proposition akin to a pro in Vegas challenging Rene (Celine Dion's husband - a billionaire with a gambling problem) to a heads up match? What is it about the grief that my opponent feels, as opposed to the many other things that put opponents on tilt, that makes him off limits here?

twang
11-07-2004, 08:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just because there are lots of people out there who would steal your car if don't lock it doesn't mean that you should run around stealing cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thatīs pretty much my opinion too.

All this law-of-the-jungle-macho-BS (Feed of the weak!! It was me or him!!!) is pretty silly, I think. Situations like these are such a rare beast that I canīt see why normal decency wouldnīt fit - Party Poker is full of "normal" fish that you can feed of so itīs not like you are giving up much EV in return for sleeping well at night.

We donīt go around stealing candy from kids just because we are stronger. We donīt stick our dicks in women just because they pass out on the floor after one beer too many. We donīt try to fill our home games with mentally challenged people. Well, some of us does, but that is not the norm.

There are plenty of "opportunities" that we pass on, so why should this be any different, if you truely belive the guy?

(That said, I think he was full of it.)

Enon
11-07-2004, 08:25 PM
That said, I think he was full of it.

If you are talking about the guy I played heads up, he referred me to a website where his wife had written a lengthy account of her pregnancy and subsequent tragedy.

In my mind, it was like 100-1 that his story was legit.

twang
11-07-2004, 08:36 PM
I could refer you to a site about a dog that died in a car accident. Would you belive me if I told you my dog was hit by a truck?

But yeah, it could very well be legit. It is (like they say around here) situation dependant.

/twang

mmcd
11-07-2004, 09:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because there are lots of people out there who would steal your car if don't lock it doesn't mean that you should run around stealing cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thatīs pretty much my opinion too.

All this law-of-the-jungle-macho-BS (Feed of the weak!! It was me or him!!!) is pretty silly, I think. Situations like these are such a rare beast that I canīt see why normal decency wouldnīt fit - Party Poker is full of "normal" fish that you can feed of so itīs not like you are giving up much EV in return for sleeping well at night.

We donīt go around stealing candy from kids just because we are stronger. We donīt stick our dicks in women just because they pass out on the floor after one beer too many. We donīt try to fill our home games with mentally challenged people. Well, some of us does, but that is not the norm.

There are plenty of "opportunities" that we pass on, so why should this be any different, if you truely belive the guy?

(That said, I think he was full of it.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't some ethics class, and it doesn't concern your personal relationships. It's business, pure and simple. If you think I'm going to give some guy I don't even know $1700 because he has some sob story, you're f'n nuts.


I hope the original poster put this guy on his buddy list so he can track him down next week after he can deposit again.

BTW, you have some serious misconceptions about poker if you think the law of the jungle doesn't apply.

MrDannimal
11-08-2004, 01:59 AM
And I could give you links to a handful of sites of journals of people who have cancer and eventually died or people who committed suicide, only to later reveal that it was a sham.

In fact, far more often than not, this kind of story is a lie. Usually something that starts out as a way to get attention that ends with "tragedy" when it either gets old or spirals way out of control and people do research and find the holes.

It's far more likely that this guy found that webpage/site and read it and is using it as cover than it is that the ludicrous series of events "Infant dies, wife and husband are depressed, husband is prescribed medication, husband decides to piss away thousands while telling everyone he's depressed and giving out all kinds of technical info and backstory on his family"

I'm not entirely sure what the real story is, or even the point. I'd bet that a stolen credit card is in there somewhere. Why would he ask you for a $$ transfer after you cleaned him out of $1700? Is that just an attempt at money laundering for retards (not that you're involved, but that he's trying to chip dump and then cover his tracks or something).

twang
11-08-2004, 03:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't some ethics class,

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. The original poster asked for opinions about his moral action.

[ QUOTE ]
and it doesn't concern your personal relationships. It's business, pure and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
So is selling crack to kids.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, you have some serious misconceptions about poker if you think the law of the jungle doesn't apply.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said it didnīt. Obviously law of the jungle-mechanics applies to life in general, not only poker. That doesnīt change the fact that vulgar application of power is silly and childish at itīs best, immoral or criminal at itīs worst.

/twang

Lawrence Ng
11-08-2004, 08:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming this story is true, I think it was pretty low of you to challenge him to a HU match. If he is truly in crisis, and wants to play to drown his sorrows, I don't see anything wrong with gambling it up with him at a full table, where he is fair game for anyone, and where he can at least try to have his escapism and possibly not lose too much too quickly. But to drag him aside specifically for the purpose of raping him sounds pretty disgusting to me.

Remember...what goes around in this world comes around.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off Enon did not "drag" him aside. This particular man consciously knew what he was doing. It was his choice to play HU. It was his choice to go all-in a bazillion times. No one forced him to play, and quite the contrary told him to get off the table. He insisted on staying and playing.

However, I believe Enon should have given back a bit to the man. Yes, what goes around comes around.

People have different ways of escaping reality and the cold truth that reality brings.

Lawrence Ng
11-08-2004, 09:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
After thinking this through, I can't get away from the fact that tons of my profits in poker have come from compulsive gamblers and other people who gambled with money they couldn't afford to lose. It is a sad fact that poker players are predatory in nature (who doesn't change tables because a known donator has shown up, or offers a heads up challenge to weak player in a full ring game) and we generally don't consider it our duty to make sure the donators will not be hurt by taking their money.

What made me decide to go ahead with the heads up match was his insistence that the money he was playing with was hardly a drop in the bucket compared with his executive salary. Had this not been the case, I would not have played him heads up and would have persisted in my efforts to stop him in the full NL game.

So, considering it was money that he could afford to lose, why wasn't my proposition akin to a pro in Vegas challenging Rene (Celine Dion's husband - a billionaire with a gambling problem) to a heads up match? What is it about the grief that my opponent feels, as opposed to the many other things that put opponents on tilt, that makes him off limits here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two years ago I had a friend who broke up with his x-girlfriend. He called me and told me he really needed to get his mind off things because he felt semi-suicidal. That night we went out and talked a lot, but it didn't help him at all. Gradually during our talks, we got into discussing poker. During the conversation I told him how I was always in a "zone" when playing cards and that my mind was always focussed on the game when I played.

Well, that night he wanted to go to the cardroom because he said he wanted to see if the cards would help him ease his mind. He had zilch knowledge of texas hold'em, but knew how to play poker. He played every single hand that night. After the first two rounds of playing, I pulled him off and said gave him the old "you play like that your gonna drop a few g's" speech. He didn't care. He wanted to play every hand and he didn't care how much he lost or won. He just wanted to get his mind off the broken relationship. Surprisingly that night he only managed to lose about $600, but it really helped him mentally to get his mind off his x.

I took some of his money. I knew he was giving it away. Does that make me wrong to play with him knowing that I am full well taking advantage of him?

No. He knew consciously and responsibly what he got himself into. For that, I have no moral regret. What was more important was that as a friend, I helped him to get his mind of thinking about suicide. To me, that's what mattered. Not the money, not the fact he was a total fish that night, but the fact he didn't think about jumping off a damn bridge for a good few hours.

Enon
11-08-2004, 10:12 AM
However, I believe Enon should have given back a bit to the man. Yes, what goes around comes around.

If my actions weren't wrong, why do you think I should give any back?

Enon
11-08-2004, 10:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see anything wrong with gambling it up with him at a full table, where he is fair game for anyone

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't share this feeling that taking his money in a live game vs. heads up match is of great magnitudes worse (if you believe it wrong in the first place). I find it strange that you have no problem with taking his money in this full game but consider it 'raping' to get him one-on-one.

I also feel it is completely irrelevant to the morality of taking the donator's money whether it is equally dispered among other players.

[ QUOTE ]
where he can at least try to have his escapism

[/ QUOTE ]

He enjoyed the same escapism with me heads up when his mouse didn't leave the raise button, as when he pushed in preflop almost every hand at the full table.

[ QUOTE ]
and possibly not lose too much too quickly

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you here that taking his money so quickly and leaving him with no more to gamble with that night is a relevant factor.

This got me thinking, how would you feel if I played him 3/6 or 5/10 heads up that allowed him to lose the money at the same pace as he would have lost it at the $100 NL table? Still rape?

Enon
11-08-2004, 10:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

mmcd
11-08-2004, 11:16 AM
That doesnīt change the fact that vulgar application of power is silly and childish at itīs best, immoral or criminal at itīs worst.

Hmmm. Liberal?

busguy
11-08-2004, 12:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That doesnīt change the fact that vulgar application of power is silly and childish at itīs best, immoral or criminal at itīs worst.

Hmmm. Liberal?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the best that your little 20 year old American college "who gives a [censored] what the rest of the world thinks" student mind can come up with ??

If having a conscience and a SPECK of compassion makes someone a Liberal in your world than I'm guessing that he probably is a Liberal.

busguy

BonJoviJones
11-08-2004, 12:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took an active role in skinning him. Sitting at a full game is passive.

busguy
11-08-2004, 01:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Enon,

I appreciate that you were having second thoughts about how this all went down. This shows me that you probably have some sense of right and wrong (unlike a few posters in this thread). But if you cannot see ANY difference between continuing to play at a full table that just happened to have both you and the sorry sack at it, versus deciding to (whether his story is true or not) personally try to take maximize advantage of this guy by offering to play him heads-up, then I think I would just be wasting my words on you.

I'm not sure if you grew up in a "dog eat dog", I better "get mine before someone else takes it from me" household, but I didn't. Caring about your fellow man is what this world should (and in some societies it is) be about at least to a certain degree. Having a conscience doesn't make you a bad poker player (or if it does all this winning I've done must just be luck), it just gives you a shot at being a decent human being. I'm not saying that you shouldn't thank the good lord for giving you an opportunity to profit from this guy . . . but I believe there is a difference between taking a reasonable profit (staying at the full table) and taking advantage of this guy by extracting the maximum (taking him to a HU table) that you can.

my 2 liberal cents

/images/graemlins/frown.gif busguy

busguy
11-08-2004, 01:32 PM
Lawrence.

From one Canadian to another, you SHOULD be able to see the difference between your story and his.

Had you decided to play heads-up for $1000 a hand I would definitely question the quality of your friendship. But you didn't. You chose NOT to capitalize (to the fullest) on the opportunity presented to you. Sure you made some money off of Dr. Ng's perscribed therapy, but you didn't choose to fleese him like I think Enon did with this guy. And NO, friendship does not have anything to do with it. Greed and selfishness do.

/images/graemlins/blush.gif busguy

mmcd
11-08-2004, 03:45 PM
I didn't say there is no room anywhere for compassion there's just no room for it at the poker table (or in business more generally). I have a problem with all this nonsense rhetoric that certain people should get special treatment because of X or Y. If the original poster had simply wrote, "I ran into a terrible player the other day, got him play me heads-up, and took 1700 off him." I doubt you people would be as put off by it. If you sit down at a poker table, you open yourself up to having your money taken by people that play better than you do. It doesn't matter if you're drunk, if your baby just died, if you're 16 years old, or if you're just plain stupid.

And BTW, it's not like this guy would have kept his $1700 if not for the heads-up match.

Sponger15SB
11-08-2004, 04:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

mmcd
11-08-2004, 04:23 PM
Poker
A game of money played with cards in which the goal is to recognize various weaknesses in the play of your opponents and take maximum advantage of them.
You make money playing poker by losing the minimmum in unfavorable situations and extracting the maximum in favorable ones.

dogmeat
11-08-2004, 04:37 PM
If you are still conflicted, good. People drink, but it's not nice to help them get drunk and then screw them.

People gamble, and playing against him at the group table was his choice. Nothing you can do about it.

Taking him to another table to get all his money, and quicker, you know, really screw him, was your choice, and now you know what kind of a person you are. Live with it.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

dogmeat
11-08-2004, 04:51 PM
So, Lawrence,if I get your story right, you spent the evening telling your friend that you were always "focused" and "in the zone" when you played poker, because you believed that was the best way to play well. Then you took him to play cards knowing that there was 0% chance he would be focused on poker............. What a good friend you are.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Slacker13
11-08-2004, 04:52 PM
He is a grown man and how can you force someone to play headsup.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe Enon should have given back a bit to the man

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this but I would have waited until the following day to give him a kickback hoping he was in a better state of mind. i personally would never of asked him to play heads up to begin with, something doesn't feel right about it but had that situation occurred under the circumstances i would def kick the guy back some money, but thats just me.

krazyace5
11-08-2004, 05:10 PM
Whats the saying? About letting a sucker keep his money?

I don't think this guy was for real and he would of lost it to someone else anyway. I bet it was stolen like the other poster said. I mean wouldn't most people be with there wife in that situation?

Would everyone feel the same if the guy was drunk or high and losing his money?

EarlCat
11-08-2004, 05:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
People gamble, and playing against him at the group table was his choice. Nothing you can do about it.

Taking him to another table to get all his money, and quicker, you know, really screw him, was your choice, and now you know what kind of a person you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell is the guy any more screwed if one person takes $1700 from him than if 9 people take $1700 from him??

busguy
11-08-2004, 05:20 PM
I think you to continue to miss the point COMPLETELY.

I agree with you that the poker table is not a place where you should show compassion for any SANE (in touch with all his faculties) human being as far as going "soft" on them. But if someone makes you aware that he has a problem that may be effecting his judgement it behoves you to NOT take actions (other than where you all ready find yourself . . . ie. at a card table) to further add to his impairment (not just alcohol). As someone else pointed out above, it would be a tad unethical to start buying drinks for a guy that is clearly already drunk . . just because you thought it would make you more money.

If an obviously retarded (severe downs sydrome) indiviual sat down beside you and mentioned that he just took out his entire life's savings because he always wanted to learn how to play Texas Hold-Em . . . would it be ok to pray on him and offer to play him heads-up ??

If you answer yes to the above I feel sorry for you because you obviously missed something important in your upbringing.

Oh and unless you are Korean (no offence intended . . it's just a fact) , your goal in business better not be to S C R E W the other guy at every opportunity. If you actually want to have a SUCCESSFUL business your goal (at least in my 15 + years experience) should be to make any business transaction as much of a win-win proposition as possible. So on that front at least, business and poker differ.

busguy

Slacker13
11-08-2004, 05:22 PM
If the story is in fact true you have to admit the guy was down and out and had been going through some major issues. I am a heavy gambler not only in poker but sports gambling and we all agree we look for every single edge in our favor possible but when it crosses the line of taking advantage of someone who is having a major crisis in his life I think you have to question what is morally right. That's just me, I couldn't take advantage of anyone in this situation and feel good about it.

EarlCat
11-08-2004, 05:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took an active role in skinning him. Sitting at a full game is passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's like saying that stealing a TV is active, but looting a TV during a riot is passive. If it's wrong, it's wrong no matter how many other people participate.

Personally, I think the moron had it coming. He was perfectly coherent and even acknowledged he was pissing away his money. He could have just as easily bought penny stocks and junk bonds on the internet. It's his responsibility and his alone to be responsible with his money. You can't condemn someone for calling his bets.

BusterStacks
11-08-2004, 05:33 PM
http://www.ladynwavs.com/anangel.html

Festus22
11-08-2004, 05:51 PM
There is part of the human condition that transcends EV.

If you can look in the mirror and say you did the right thing, then far be it from us to disagree with you. We all have a personally established sense of right and wrong. Yes, "society" has established those definitions in many cases and where they cross an extreme line, laws and punishment exist.

But in your case, only you can provide the answer. Look into your soul and see what you're character is all about. You know if you crossed your moral line or not. Given the fact that you posted this, I think you have.

Enon
11-08-2004, 06:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think there is a HUGE difference between not getting up from a full table (ie. keep playing) and OFFERING to play the guy H/U to take advantage of his "possible" mental situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took an active role in skinning him. Sitting at a full game is passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting distinction, but not a relevant one in my mind.

I suppose if for some reason everyone decided to leave this full NL table and it got heads up between us, taking his $1700 would be fine since I didn't technically 'initiate' the headsup match and sat down at the table unaware of his mental state.

Enon
11-08-2004, 06:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There is part of the human condition that transcends EV.

If you can look in the mirror and say you did the right thing, then far be it from us to disagree with you. We all have a personally established sense of right and wrong. Yes, "society" has established those definitions in many cases and where they cross an extreme line, laws and punishment exist.

But in your case, only you can provide the answer. Look into your soul and see what you're character is all about. You know if you crossed your moral line or not. Given the fact that you posted this, I think you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd prefer to think this through logically by thinking about and responding to people's posts, rather than following my gut instinct /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

mmcd
11-08-2004, 06:38 PM
How the hell is the guy any more screwed if one person takes $1700 from him than if 9 people take $1700 from him??

Bingo.

Lawrence Ng
11-08-2004, 10:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What a good friend you are

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironically, your sarcasm is right.

Lawrence Ng
11-08-2004, 10:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Had you decided to play heads-up for $1000 a hand I would definitely question the quality of your friendship. But you didn't. You chose NOT to capitalize (to the fullest) on the opportunity presented to you. Sure you made some money off of Dr. Ng's perscribed therapy, but you didn't choose to fleese him like I think Enon did with this guy. And NO, friendship does not have anything to do with it. Greed and selfishness do.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not about greed, or money. This IS about friendship. I'm not trying to exploit or take advantage of him. He knew fully well he was gambling. It was therapeutic for him. In the few hours he was there, he was in a willing suspension of disbelief. That helped him get his mind of suicide.

You wanna tell me a better way I can help my buddy, I'd love to hear it.

Some people, when they get depressed spend tons of money shopping, buying tons of stuff. Some people go on vacations. Some people do drugs. Some people drink copius amounts of alcohol. My friend didn't know what he wanted to do because he was so dazed and confused at that point in time. His outlet and relief came through the cards. Had he chose after 10 minutes of playing that it wasn't the kind of outlet for him to relieve his depression I would have gladly got off the table with him.

Lawrence

James282
11-09-2004, 02:07 AM
Unless you harassed him into playing HU or goaded him your decision was fine by my book. This guy was playing online poker, and he decided that playing HU would be more theraputic than a full NL cash game. Enon presented him with that option, but this guy was going to lose his money either way, so why shouldn't it be to Enon?

And frankly, if this guy has a serious gambling problem and can not afford it, busting faster in this night is going to be much better for him than having the illusion that he has a chance to win. And by playing Enon he didn't have to sit and get berated by players who hate when someone greatly deviates from the norm. Now I can't say I would have ever offered this HU match, but I don't find Enon morally reprehensible in the least, and I am a Liberal!
-James

bernie
11-09-2004, 02:44 AM
If i personally knew the guy, i'd likely take him aside and say something. If he chooses not to listen and blow his money anyways, it may as well be to me. I might call his wife and tell her the situation, but i'd still sit down and try and take his money. Would i give some 'back' to him. Hell no. Tough love he should've gotten long ago. Giving his money back will teach him nothing. There are no do-overs. As one responder said, if this type of session doesn't wake him up or teach him a lesson...

Get up from a full game with him? Absolutely not. Your 2nd question covers this. If many of these responders knew how many compulsive gambling addicts they have probably played with and took money from they'd go into a shell. It's part of the game. It happens. I don't expect any mercy rule to come into play when i'm playing. It also helps no one but one's own conscience to go 'easy' on the guy. Is it really helping? Or just prolonging the inevitable? My line for compassion ends at the inside of the table ring. I can feel compassionate for the guy and his wife while taking his money. Taking his money has nothing to do with it. It's business. It's poker. I mean, once you cross the line of going easy on a guy playing because of a sob story, where are you going to draw the line? Some are very blind to just how cold this game can be.

To the points:
[ QUOTE ]
He claimed to be under the influence of heavy anti-depressants because of the stress he was under due to the death of his wife's newborn infant. I believed the authenticity of his situation because he was able to quickly give the names of the drugs he was taking, as well as refer us to a website with the heartbreaking account of his wife's pregnancy and the tragic death of the fetus.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a reason i dont drink when i play. There's a reason i like when they drink or do whatever when they play. I don't care the reason why.

[ QUOTE ]
Some people in the game obviously felt guilty and tried convincing him to stop throwing his money away. I attempted to do this too, but he claimed that gambling on poker was theraputic for him and that the money he was dumping at the table was an amount he could afford to lose.


[/ QUOTE ]

Need another reason, he says he can afford to lose it. Case closed. Who's to say to anyone what they can afford to lose or play mommy to them?

[ QUOTE ]
So I figured if he wants to give away his money, I might as well get the rest of it in a 15/30 heads up match. Our 'competition' lasted about 50 hands before I cleared him out of his $1700. The maniac would cap every street with little to nothing and then when he finally busted, he begged me to transfer him some more money, because his weekly deposity limit was up

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell him you'll see him in a week. No way are you transferring money to him. Why? So you can win back your own money or he can blow your money to someone else? Who knows if he'll actually pay you back. Forcing him to stop in this way may actually help him.

[ QUOTE ]
As I took a taxi back to my hotel after my session, I felt a little guilty about taking his money. It felt too easy. If he would have played halfway decently, or at least put up some sort of fight, I would have felt like I earned it. Instead, I felt more like I robbed the guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you have felt this way if he went on a monstrous run and in short-term, kicked the hell out of you? Given the luck factor, i never feel like i robbed them. It's why i study the game. It's why i hope they don't study their games.

[ QUOTE ]
At what point would you stop taking his money if party didnt put a cap on the amount he could transfer from his bank account

[/ QUOTE ]

When i got tired. Remember, he said he could afford to lose it. Any complaints from him afterwards i will repeat his own line back to him. If he cries about it, say it with Hallmark.

b

zaxx19
11-09-2004, 02:52 AM
ID PROBABLY TAKE HIS MONEY IN THE RING GAME BUT THE REST REAKS OF BAD BAD KARMA.........IF SOMEONE ELSE WILL TAKE HIS MONEY LET IT BE ON THEIR HEAD IN THE MORNING MONEY IS IMPORTANT BUT ITS NOT EVERYTHIN EVEN IN POKER...IF I FELT AS THOUGH IT WAS ID PROBABLY CHEAT MY FRIENDS IN HOME GAMES AS IT WOULD BE VERY SIMPLE AND PROFITABLE..I COULD ALWAYS TELL MYSELF THAT SOMEONE ELSE PROBABLY WILL ANYWAY RIGHT??

Dark Force Rising
11-09-2004, 03:35 AM
If this really bothers you and this discussion is not simply for academic purposes call Partys' support line and find a way to get the dough back to him.This way you will alleviate any "karma" or subconcious self-fulfilling prophecy.Then when the 200BB downswing hits you can take comfort in being an innocent victim.

pokerraja
11-09-2004, 07:31 AM
Enon,
Myself, coming from a pool background, i go to bars and try to hustle money from drunk macho men who are trying to impress their girls, or pool newbies who think they got game. key word is hustle. this is how i make my money. is this wrong? no. these guys agreed to the rules of the game, and i just try to adjust my game to make it look like i got lucky. bottom line, is im trying to make money. with-in our pool players community, we trade our hustling stories and we actually are proud of each others hustles, and pat each other on the back for these accomplisments.

With that being said, I cant believe some here are actually ridiculing you for "hustling" money. I mean are poker players all of a sudden in a christian brotherhood? lets not forget, that we poker players are no different than pool players, we are trying to hustle money from the weak. This is our main objective. This is why we read books, forums, etc... I say good job enon, and damn,I wish it was me!

bernie
11-09-2004, 07:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I mean are poker players all of a sudden in a christian brotherhood?

[/ QUOTE ]

Confessor: Forgive me father, for i have sinned. I bluffed a very needy person off a 25 big bet pot on the turn in a hold em game. I know i should've just folded and done the right thing since he was bemoaning about being unable to hit the ATM until after midnight. He was lamenting that he would be broke until then.

Father: Nice play! <whispers: Can you fit into an altar boy robe?>

b

Turning Stone Pro
11-09-2004, 10:39 AM
You fellas know I am a mentally disturbed person. You dont think I can create a story online similar to the one in Enon's post?

If you can win money, do it. PP has gotten significantly tougher as of late, IMO. If someone is asking you to take their money, take it.

For instance, do I feel guilty for taking money in shorthanded situations from second rate 2+2ers? Not in the least. I just take the cash, hope they learned something, and move on.

TSP

EarlCat
11-09-2004, 12:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
call Partys' support line and find a way to get the dough back to him

[/ QUOTE ]

Give that wino on the corner a bottle of jack while you're at it.

Senor Choppy
11-10-2004, 09:18 AM
Who you take money from when playing online doesn't change the morality of the activity. You're playing 9 unknowns day after day, you can assume that some of these people are gambling money they can't afford to lose. Because one person speaks out as being one of these people shouldn't change anything. Whether what we do is moral or not is difficult to say, but if it was moral before this happened, it's still moral after the fact.

You didn't cause this person to lose everything, it would've happened regardless of whether or not you were around. If you want to do something good or moral, set aside some of the money you win and come up with a good charity, whether it be a large donation to breast cancer research or spending it on one specific human being, trying to change their life for the better.

It's difficult to tell whether giving the money back would even help this person in the first place. Sometimes you need to hit rock bottom, etc.

ChicagoTroy
11-10-2004, 05:09 PM
Gambling sites are supposed to monitor for people with gambling problems, IIRC. You should have alerted management to the chat.

Reducing the guy's ability to gamble for "fun" for a few hours by challenging him to a heads up match that would likely last about a half hour was unconscionable.

You're wondering if doing this makes you immoral. Yes, it did. Fortunately, since this only involves money, it just takes money to undo. Give his money to a charity that works on reducing infant mortality, SIDS, or whatever.

For those who think this was OK, since any opponent could be a compulsive gambler, that is weak. A liquor store owner probably knows he might be selling booze to anonymous folks who might be an alcoholics, but he can't tell if they're shopping sober. That doesn't mean that people with no problem have no right to buy liquor. But when the homeless drunk guy comes in and looks for Old E, the owner's an [censored] if he sells it to him.

"Somebody was going to get this player's money, might as well be me." Somebody's going to make money selling crack, so you might as well do that, too. Assheads.

Enon, get rid of that money. You'll feel better.

Chief911
11-10-2004, 05:22 PM
Buster,

Thanks for the perspective.

Nick

mmcd
11-10-2004, 06:28 PM
Gambling sites are supposed to monitor for people with gambling problems

No.

Wives, relatives, and friends are supposed to monitor for gambling problems.

Gambling sites are supposed to make money.

People with gambling problems are supposed to lose money.

J_V
11-10-2004, 07:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Remember...what goes around in this world comes around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somebody actually believes that?

bernie
11-10-2004, 09:06 PM
If gambling sites had to monitor 'problem' gamblers, or even casinos for that matter, who are they to say what one player can afford to lose? Who are they to tell him he is playing wrong and shouldn't be allowed to play? There is no way to draw that line without opening a whole can of worms.

[ QUOTE ]
A liquor store owner probably knows he might be selling booze to anonymous folks who might be an alcoholics, but he can't tell if they're shopping sober. That doesn't mean that people with no problem have no right to buy liquor.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also doesn't mean that people with a problem have no right to buy liquor. I believe their money spends just as well. Let's put the responsibility more on the alcoholic, not the seller. After all, it's his problem, not the worlds. The earth still spins whether he gets his drink or not.

[ QUOTE ]
But when the homeless drunk guy comes in and looks for Old E, the owner's an [censored] if he sells it to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

The drunk might be working on a punchcard system to where he might be close to getting a free bottle if he buys one more. You can't deny him that after all that hard work.

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody's going to make money selling crack, so you might as well do that, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's illegal.

[ QUOTE ]
For those who think this was OK, since any opponent could be a compulsive gambler, that is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about kids who steal their parents credit cards and play? Thinking that the greater percentage of players you see really blowing chips online don't have some problem you're only fooling yourself. But based on that, im sure the many charities that you are funding have been happy with your numerous contributions. All zero of them.

b

Losing all
11-11-2004, 06:09 AM
I'm not sure why you would classify twang's ideas as liberal. I did mfing cartwheels on the 2nd and the thought of challenging this dude to HU 15/30 makes me sick.

I'm not saying I believe in this story either. if I thought there was any chance that it were true, how could I look at myself in the mirror? I couldn't, bleeding heart conservative OUT

Fitz
11-11-2004, 03:40 PM
I am a big believer in personal responsibility, but I believe you crossed the line here. This guy was drowning and you tossed him an anchor. This is the kind of thing that really gives poker a bad name.

I'm glad you feel bad, you should.

Fitz

bernie
11-11-2004, 04:32 PM
What's the difference whether you take his money in a group setting or HU? Because others are there with you joining in makes it different? Your goal is still the same. Having others at the table doesn't change anything.

Remember, the guy also said he could 'afford' it.

b