ring game player converting

[umdpoker]

hi everybody. i play at party. i was working my way up the ring game ladder (made it up to 2/4) when i realized i was bored as hell playing ring games. i started off a couple months ago playing 5+1 sng's and did quite well. i think i placed in money approximately 60% of the time, and i really enjoyed it. changing gears when it got shorthanded was fun. of course, then i read everywhere that ring games are where the money is at. so, i tried to chase the money. anyways, i have decided to come back to sng's for a while to kill the boredom. i also think i can make decent money at the same time. so, i have a few questions for the sng experts here:
1)when do sng's start getting difficult? is 10+1 much harder than 5+1? paying 20% in fees is just absurd.
2)what bankroll do you recommend in terms of buy-ins? is 50 enough?
3)what win rate can i expect if i ever attain expert status at 10+1? what about very good, but not expert?
4)is nl or limit more profitable? i have played a few 5+1 nl the last couple days, and the play was just terrible. i suck at nl, but i placed in every tourney i entered.
5)if you have any general advice, please lay it on me. thanks.

[CrisBrown]

Hi umd,

I wouldn't call myself a "SNG expert," but here's my take on your questions:

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1)when do sng's start getting difficult? is 10+1 much harder than 5+1? paying 20% in fees is just absurd.


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I've never played at Party, but what I've read here (from those who do) suggests there's no appreciable difference in level of play between the $6 and $11 tourneys. Given that, if you have the bankroll to cover the $11s (see below), I'd say it only makes sense play at $11 and halve the vig.

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2)what bankroll do you recommend in terms of buy-ins? is 50 enough?

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For one-table NL SNGs, 20-30 buy-ins is usually adequate.

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3)what win rate can i expect if i ever attain expert status at 10+1? what about very good, but not expert?

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For the lower buy-in one-table NL SNGs, the better players here seem to aim for 40-50% in the money, over a very long term (300+ SNGs).

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4)is nl or limit more profitable? i have played a few 5+1 nl the last couple days, and the play was just terrible. i suck at nl, but i placed in every tourney i entered.

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I think you'll have more consistency at NL, because you can more easily protect your hands, and punish your opponents' mistakes more severely.

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5)if you have any general advice, please lay it on me. thanks.

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Again, I've never played at Party, but from what I'm told, the best strategy there is to play very tight early on, and let the maniacs bust each other ... without taking you out with them. Play your strong hands aggressively, and don't waste a lot of time bluffing (early) because you will run into too many calling stations. (On the other hand, those same calling stations will pay off your big hands.) As the blinds get bigger, and the field thins out, you can start to play a bit more creatively. But solid, aggressive, ABC poker is what wins at these levels.

Cris

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I'll tackle some of your questions.

$50+$5 is hardly more difficult than $20+$2 most of the time. There is no difference between $5+$1 and $10+$1 except for the % vig (obviously you should avoid $5+$1 like the plague, but $5+$0.50 is OK). The two table 18 player SNGs on stars DO tend to be more difficult at all buy-in levels than the one table.

50 buy-ins should be MORE than enough if you play half way decently and you are playing no limit.

I am not the one to give advice on win rates. I don't keep track myself, so I really don't know what my win rate actually is. I am sure I cash in close to 50%, if not a bit more, but this is purely gut feeling based on playing thousands of times without ever keeping records.

Also, I play solely no limit SNGs. Anything else, particularly limit hold'em SNGs, are a waste of effort in my book. As a good no limit player, my advantage at no limit is so much greater than any other game, there is no point in playing ANYTHING else. I have probably played ten limit SNGs total EVER, and every time those are just because I accidentally entered the wrong SNG.

If you have placed in every no limit SNG you have entered, well then you have not entered very many.

A big advantage of no limit SNGs is that the morons tend to play stupidly and eliminate each other before you run low on chips, so usually you have fewer players to play against when you begin to be forced to play because of escalating blinds.

al

[umdpoker]

i definitely have not played very many nl sng's. in fact, i believe i played 5 this week, with 3 3rd and 2 2nd place finishes. i didn't claim that i would place every tourney or even half of them yet. just commenting on how bad the other players are. i am a limit player, however, so was wondering if limit tourneys can be as profitable as nl. i witnessed what you pointed out, that the morons go all-in early with crap and then its down to 4 or 5 people and you can play the survival game to get into the money. this also means its easy to get a lot of chips early if you get big hands-no slowplaying necessary, just go all-in and somebody will call with their pair of 7's. i believe you that nl sng's are more profitable for a good player. i think this is also true for very good nl ring game players too though. here is my plan: i'll play 100 nl sng's and 100 limit sng's. whichever i do better at will be my game of choice. thanks for the advice.

[Bigwig]

Statistically speaking, the most profitable games for the best poker players are NL Tournaments.

[BradleyT]

At the $5 and $10 NL SnG level you'll find way too many players that watch the WPT and think calling all in PF with something like AJo or 77 is perfectly fine at a full table.

Of course you do suffer quite a few bad beats but in the long run we know what happens.

I say go for it.

[jedi]

I'm also a limit player, but I play only No Limit in tournaments. It gives you so many more weapons to use, and even if you're short on chips, it allows you to make a comeback quickly. This is a very cheap way to gain NL tournament experience. As someone already mentioned, play 5+.50 or 10+1, don't go to the 5+1s any more. Also, if you're on different sites, take note of the blind and level structure. Some might be more suited to your play.

[pokeraz]

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I have probably played ten limit SNGs total EVER, and every time those are just because I accidentally entered the wrong SNG.

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Haha. I did that very thing last. I didn't realize until the third hand and I had pocket AA on the button. It went limp, min raise, min-raise, min-raise. I'm thinking friggin' morons and was ready to drop a fat bet on them. I was quite shocked to find that I was actually in a limit sng. My aces got cracked that hand but I ended up first. So now I consider myself an expert limit sng guy and don't need to be bothered with them anymore [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[xtravistx]

I've been playing Party Sit n Go's for about 6 months, this is what I can offer.
1) Never played 5+1, but 10+1's are very very soft. 1/2 are maniacs, other 1/2 are weak/tight. Very beatable. Often 2-3 out by level 3. 20+1 doesn't seem to be a huge jump in skill, but haven't played enough to tell yet.
2) 50 buy ins or $500 should be way more than you need for 10+ 1, especially if you're moneying that much. I think 250 is plenty for that level.
3) If you're good at all, getting in the money 60% of the time shouldn't be hard. As you make the transition from good to "expert" and make more of those 3rd place finishes into 1st place finishes (finishing at 1st place as much as 1/2 or more of your money finishes) is where you'll make your good money.
4) stick to NL, the fish will stay on any draw and suckouts are more likely to occur. Plus NL's are faster because they love going all in every chance they get and knock each other out really quickly.

[umdpoker]

thanks everybody for your responses. i have decided that i am going to try the nl sng's first, as everybody, including a limit player, suggested that nl are more profitable. i'll give you guys an update when i hit my 50th tourney. here i go!