Stars $35 6-handed....Turn play?

Jonathan · #1 12-29-2005, 03:25 PM

How should I continue on the turn in this situation?
The BB has slow played a number of prior hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t2309)
Hero (t2868)
SB (t3823)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t300, SB calls t250, BB calls t200.

Flop: (t900) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t900, SB folds, BB calls t900.

Turn: (t2700) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks,

On the flop, I would normally bet between 1/2 the pot
up to the full pot. In this case, I chose to pot it
because of the draw heavy board, and I'm happy to take
it down right away.

Once BB calls this bet, and the straight card comes on
the turn, how should you respond to his check?

Thanks for the input.

Jonathan

#2 12-29-2005, 04:12 PM

Personally I just try to check/call it down cheap and fold to any real bet. Yes he might draw out on you, but I think much more often you're already beat here and you're just throwing money down a hole with a big turn or river bet. IE - he folds 33, but calls anything that has you beat.

I like the 6x$35s on PS. I like when it gets to HU quick and you really get to play some poker. Not 100% thrilled to know there's 2+2ers on there [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-Matt

Jonathan · #3 12-29-2005, 04:42 PM

Yes, I like the 6 handed games too.
A larger % of the prize pool goes for first place
so there is a premium on heads up play.

In the hand in question, I am always torn about whether
or not to give a free card. My initial reaction to your
line is that it is "weak-tight" and gives weaker hands an
opportunity to draw out. But, on the other hand..... you
could easily lose most of your stack in this situation.

That's why I'm wondering how others handle it.

Suerte,
Jonathan

#4 12-29-2005, 05:04 PM

There is a variety of hands he could have here, possible set? possibility he may have a small overpair on the board...after the turn I would slow down a bit, my guess is an overpair on the board, or a flush draw...but i would check right after him after the turn and try and check it down...

dougan

Snarf · #5 12-29-2005, 05:08 PM

I'm struggling with these spots too...Here is my default lines:

A) against a sneaky player - get to showdown CHEAPLY
B) Against an aggressive/sheriff player - block bet city
C) weak-tighty - bet it and fold if raised

...but I'm looking foward to seeing better responses 'cuz I have trouble here.

#6 12-29-2005, 05:24 PM

I think the 6x$35s are *generally* of the #3 variety. They like being able to play more hands than the full tables, they don't mind getting into a long, intense 3-handed/HU battle, and they don't like turbo. IE - they aren't 8-tabling pro-bots (probots - I like that). So barring any specific reads, I would assume weakish-tightish.

As far as block bets, he's first to act. He's already checked the turn. Just check, see what falls and he does on the river, then decide.

OP, what did you do on the turn and what was the river card (assuming you saw it).

One other thing, I seem to get in a lot of trouble with TPTK where TP = 6-9 or so, in a 3-4 way pot. It just never seems to work out and I can't ever push everyone out. Could be something there.

Jonathan · #7 12-29-2005, 05:42 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t2309)
Hero (t2868)
SB (t3823)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t300, SB calls t250, BB calls t200.

Flop: (t900) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets t900, SB folds, BB calls t900.

Turn: (t2700) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1668 (All-In), BB calls t1109 (All-In).

River: (t5477) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t5477

some problem with converter....Villain showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

__________________________________________________ _____

So in hindsight you were all right that I should have
slowed down and checked right behind. Especially since
he had shown himself earlier to be a sneaky player.

But it is so so difficult for me to give what may be
a free card to beat me. I have to learn to handle this
type of fluid situation.

Thanks for the responses.

Suerte,
Jonathan

#8 12-29-2005, 05:51 PM

Yeah it looks like you got called by the one of those hands that had you beat we talked about. It's fine to push people off free cards, but you want to be pretty sure you already have the best hand. Which I'd be very doubtful of, once he called the 900 bet.

And even if you are pretty sure you have the best hand, you only need to bet enough to make it a bad decision for him to call (see HoH I). You don't need to go all-in everytime just because you're scared of one card. If your opponent is calling you w/o the correct odds, in the long run that's going to hurt him and help you. Although in the short run, it can be very frustrating when he draws out on you.

Jonathan · #9 12-29-2005, 08:12 PM

Good point about sizing my bet and no need to go all in.

But what do you think about his $900 call with a flush draw
and a gutshot? Looks very very fishy to me, especially
since, for all he knows, I could be on flush draw too so
he can have no real confidence that his flush is any good.

Suerte,
Jonathan

#10 12-29-2005, 08:48 PM

Well on the turn, he probably thinks since you're betting out very strong, that you aren't also on a flush draw. Yes you could be semi-bluffing, but for pot-odds consideration that's really not something you can factor in. So by his calcs that would give him at least 12 outs (9 diamonds and 3 non-diamond 6s) and possibly 3 more with the 8, although I think he'd have to be a little worried about an overpair. So that gives him either a ~48% or ~60% chance of hitting one of his outs over 2 rounds. He's getting 2-1 on his 900 to call. Not a bad call since his odds are somewhere between 1-1.05 and 3-2 to hit.

There are 3 other factors to consider:

#1 If he doesn't hit the turn, you may very well push him out before the river, (which you tried to do) thus reducing all of his pot odds roughly in half-- whether he plans to call the river or fold. Still I think he pretty much has to call an all-in, with all those outs, even if he misses the turn.

#2 Implied odds. Big if he hits the straight (as we saw) or 8 (assuming 8s are good). But not so big if he hits the flush.

#3 $EV - this is the biggest factor. From a purely eV perspective he made the right play. BUT now we get into a whole nother level with the fact that we're on the bubble and you have him covered. $EV-wise I really don't know.

$EV tutorial

If you really want to try to figure it out, you can plug each case into ICM for him (he hits and doubles up, he hits and adds 900, he calls the turn but folds the river, he calls all the way and loses all his chips). You have the odds he hits his hands above. Try a scenario where he plans to call all the way and one where he's ready to fold the turn if he misses. Also try a scenario where he just gets the 900 off of you, and one where he doubles up. You can even try a combo where he gets all your chips with an 8 or a straight, but only the 900 (or 1200 or so) with a flush. You might also try a scenario where he raises you all-in on the flop. Give him some fold equity. I have a feeling that might be the best move of all for him.

Now see if any of these scenarios is greater $EV than the $EV if he just folded your flop bet. That will tell you if calling made sense for him. I'm very curious to see how this turns out. I can't get ICM et al going here at work to do the math, but I will be glad to work on it when I get home if you need help figuring it all out. PM me as a reminder.

-Matt

(caveat: I'm pretty knew at this, so it's possible I may have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think I've got most of this stuff right.)