Pushing against limpers

Atropos · #1 05-20-2005, 05:50 AM

How do I calculate when to push against limpers?

How do I calculate when to push against Minraisers/3BB raisers?

Atropos · #2 05-20-2005, 07:24 AM

OK lets make it simple:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter

CO (t1230)
Button (t530)
SB (t2305)
BB (t860)
UTG (t1820)
Hero (t1255)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t200</font>, Hero raises all-in [t1255]

Is that correct? If yes: WHY? If not: WHY NOT?

Jman28 · #3 05-20-2005, 07:32 AM

Yes, this play is correct. But this is kind of an easy one. You'd like to take down the blinds and his 200 chips, and you're likely to have the best hand. It is very unlikely that you are way behind.

The best way to learn is by posting individual hands like this. You get more responses that way than with a general question like your original post.

EasilyFound · #4 05-20-2005, 07:33 AM

I like it. But you probably shouldn't use me as a standard for good poker play.

Atropos · #5 05-20-2005, 07:37 AM

Thx for your answer, but its not exactly what I wanted. It looks like a decent play because AKo is a good hand, and minraise often means "hand, I dont want to push" and only sometimes "I have AA/KK, come over the top".

However I want an exact mathematical explanation why this play is correct.

EasilyFound · #6 05-20-2005, 07:58 AM

Well, I can't help you there. But I'd bet it is a mathematically good play. Hopefully, someone can confirm or deny that.

zaphod · #7 05-20-2005, 09:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thx for your answer, but its not exactly what I wanted. It looks like a decent play because AKo is a good hand, and minraise often means "hand, I dont want to push" and only sometimes "I have AA/KK, come over the top".

However I want an exact mathematical explanation why this play is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you cannot get an exact mathematical explanation since you then would have to now excatly what range of hands your opponents would be minraising with and you don't know that. You also needs to know what handrange all your opponents would be calling you with. You can make estimates, but it want be a 100% correct mathematical answer.
So you just make the play that rates to be +EV. Pushing is good.

pokerlaw · #8 05-20-2005, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I want an exact mathematical explanation why this play is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) If i knew the "exact mathematical explanation", I doubt I would share it on the internet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

2) I doubt that such an explanation exists. It seems akin to saying "I want an exact explanation as to why I should invest with mutual fund manager A over fund manager B." Poker is risky, and in sit and goes, you usually (high level players aside) only play an opponent once. Making "exact" decisions based on less than an hour of playing someone is completely inexact. Maybe the player in the AK hand you posted ONLY mini-raises with AA or KK. However, even if you play him 5 times, you might not know that b/c he might not have gotten AA or KK in that timespan. In short, trust your gut and gambol.

Costanza · #9 05-20-2005, 10:24 AM

As others have already said, there isn't an exact mathematical answer to this problem. The only way you could get one is if UTG flips over his cards before you have to make your decision.

The closest you can get to "an exact mathematical answer" is to decide what range of hands you think he would make this raise with and use something like PokerStove to calculate your chances of winning against this range of hands. You know how many chips you have if you fold. If you think you know what your chances of winning are you can calculate how many chips you'll have on average if you call [(chips left if you win)(probabilty that you'll win)+(chips left if you lose)(probability that you'll lose)].

However, it's a little more complicated than that. What you really want to know is not just how many chips you'll have, but how much tournament equity you'll have. This can be calculated with ICM (independent chip model) which, although slightly flawed, gives you an idea of how much money you'll win given your stack size in relation to the other stacks and the payout distribution of the tournament.

The easy way to figure all this out is to get eastbay's SNG Analyzer. You can search for it here on this forum. I think he also still has a classified ad for it on the site.

Atropos · #10 05-20-2005, 10:37 AM

"The easy way to figure all this out is to get eastbay's SNG Analyzer. You can search for it here on this forum. I think he also still has a classified ad for it on the site."

I have it and it doesnt support this kind of calculations, as far as I know.