I got berated for this play - PLO hand

[Catul]

I can't get Bison's converter to work for Pokerstars PLO hand histories, so I've typed this in - please excuse any errors!

PokerStars Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2)

UTG ($388)
MP1 ($79)
MP2 ($200)
MP3 ($141)
Villain ($95)
Button ($73)
Hero ($147)
BB ($37)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls $2, MP1 calls 2, MP2 calls $2, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises to $4, Villain raises to $21</font>, Button calls $21, Hero calls $20, BB folds, UTG calls $19, MP1 calls $19, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $19.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">Villain</font> bets $74 and is all-in, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero</font> raises $51 to $126 and is all-in, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero has [5d 3s 6s 5h] (a straight, Ace to Five)
Villain has [Ad Ah 6d 5c] (three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $276. </font>

Ok, so my preflop call of a reraise wasn't that good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ; I put the villain on a high pair, Aces most likely. I hit a great flop, figured an Ace, 3, 5, 6 would give me the nut straight, so that makes 11 theoretical outs right? Now Villain likely has two of those aces, but I still like my chances. Anyone think my reraise on the flop wasn't the right move? What would you have done?

Several people on the table thought I played incorrectly; the Villain said "you raised on a draw??!!!"

[Grump]

I won't say too much about the preflop play since you already know it wasn't strong. Not only is the hand not worth it, but one of the cards is basically out of play -- trip fives is not a hand you will want to strontgly back, plus you were out of position -- you easily could have been raised back. If you are going to back in with these kinds of hands at least do it when you are completing the betting.

Your play on the flop was clearly correct. The last thing you want is just to call, then what do you do if you miss and then have to call a bet on the turn (here, you would still call, since the bet is not that big compared to the pot size, but the principle in general holds). You are a huge favorite at the flop BECAUSE you have two cards to come. In fact, you are a bigger favorite than you think, as the backdoor flush draw may be adding the equivalent of another out. In general, if you can get all in on a big wrap (assuming there is no flush draw out there, or that you have the flush draw, too), you want to do so. Playing a big wrap like you have top trips not only adds deception to your game, but also is often mathematically correct, with two cards to come.

[crockpot]

there is no way you should be calling this raise preflop. i would have folded for the $3 from the first raise.

once you get to the flop, your best play is to bet out. your odds against aces are fine, but you would rather take the pot down now. this board isn't very scary, so a pair of aces will probably bet it, but it's very hard for him to call a huge pot bet with just aces. betting and hoping everyone passes is better than forcing yourself to hit your draw to win.

[Catul]

Grump, thanks for the response - I appreciate it! I felt my play on the flop was ok, certainly not deserving of comments like this from some of the other players:

"it's poker, thank god for players like Hero . . . playing with statues is no fun"

"yep especially when he thinks he played well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] "

"every game needs a knowall"

Now I calculated my straight outs correctly right? Though, looking at the Villain's hand, he held several of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I did get pretty lucky, but felt it was worth it having put him on the Aces.

[Catul]

Crockpot, thanks for the response. Yeah, I guess I was in a real loosey-goosey mood with my preflop play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I was more surprised by the comments on my postflop play - Villain couldn't believe I reraised him with a draw, mentioning how he "was ahead on the flop".

[Grump]

I couldn't agree more that the preflop call shouldn't have been made, but at the flop I still think the paramount goal should be to get all in. You don't want to be on the turn with only a draw when the pot is large and the money deep, it is so seldom a favorite and cannot withstand heavy betting. Hit it when you are the favorite. This is covered, by the way, in Ciaffone's and Reuben's PL/NL book, if you want to see more.

Don't listen to people who talk about "draw" versus a "made" hand at Omaha. Consider a flop like T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Would you rather have a "made" hand like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or be sitting there with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? Or T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Omaha is a funny game where, especially with two cards to come, a drawing hand can be a favorite over a made hand. In fact, this can even happen at Holdem, although it is less common. Your admittedly reckless call at the flop was redeemed, as occasionally but not usually will happen, with an ideal flop where you had somewhere between 40 and 55% chance of completing, but where the odds drop dramatically on the turn if you don't hit. Most wraps don't hit the flop, you have to hit hard on the ones that do -- it's the entire reason you went into the hand as a known underdog.

[Filip]

I like it, and that includes the preflop call. Considering the amount of people that did call preflop i like it even better.

[ToneLoc]

[ QUOTE ]
mentioning how he "was ahead on the flop".

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you worry Catul, let the suck3r give you lessons... one thing you know for sure is next time you hit trip jacks on that flop, he will pay you for all his money with 2 outs twice.
Picturing all that money coming your way should help you let them give lessons [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Grump]

I like Reuben's advise on what he does when he gets hit with a virulent outdraw -- he just sits back and remembers the times when he himself pulled off a killer bad beat and won a big pot, rather than brooding about his most recent loss. Works for me, too. Let other people chase the two outers.

[BlackAces]

[ QUOTE ]
Grump, thanks for the response - I appreciate it! I felt my play on the flop was ok, certainly not deserving of comments like this from some of the other players:

"it's poker, thank god for players like Hero . . . playing with statues is no fun"

"yep especially when he thinks he played well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] "

"every game needs a knowall"

Now I calculated my straight outs correctly right? Though, looking at the Villain's hand, he held several of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I did get pretty lucky, but felt it was worth it having put him on the Aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should start playing the Stars PLO. Playing against people like this is both fun and profitable. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]