Do the deeper stacks turn me into a weak/tight player?

[twomarks]

Fair enough. Do you get a lot of callers with small PP's with a 5xbb raise at 6 handed? If you do, then that makes things a little more tricky, but I don't see it happening that much at the 10 handed tables I play. Or I just haven't really run into that problem just yet.

twomarks

[kurto]

"Do you get a lot of callers with small PP's with a 5xbb raise at 6 handed?" I would call that raise anytime with a small pp so long as the raiser or other players have a full stack.

[Ghazban]

For 5% of my stack, I'll call a raise with a small pocket pair at just about any table (10-max, 6-max, whatever). If anything, most small stakes players call too many raises with small pairs in the hopes of flopping sets. Calling off a small portion of your stack with a small pair is an excellent play if you can win a large pot when you hit.

[twomarks]

I think I understand, but could you explain how most small stakes players call too many raises with small PP's at the same time that it's an excellent play?

Do you mean you only call a 5% raise if you have a chance to double through? If you don't have a chance to double up, then what percentage of your stack to you require your opponent to have in order to call the raise?

Thanks,

twomarks

[Al P]

Since it's 7.5:1 against flopping a set, when you do flop you'll sometimes lose, and when you do flop you sometimes won't double through, getting 20:1 on your call allows you to show a profit.

10:1 or less (10%+ of stack) is often risky because so many times you take down just a small pot - that's where people lose money (when calling a raise).

[kurto]

"10:1 or less (10%+ of stack) is often risky because so many times you take down just a small pot - that's where people lose money (when calling a raise)." Its true. Though hidden sets against a preflop raiser are often your biggest moneymakers. Also... oftentimes its not headsup... when you hit, you have to figure in the number of times you'll have more then one person making a stab at the pot.

For instance... recently, I called a preflop raise 5xbb with 5 seeing the flop... flopped top set (with a little under a full stack)... there was a bet, a call, and a raise all before it got to me. By the end there was 3 allins and some other dead money in the pot... Final pot was about ~300BBs.

Huge wins like those balance out the times you call raises with PP and don't hit as well as the times you hit and might lose the hand.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
"10:1 or less (10%+ of stack) is often risky because so many times you take down just a small pot - that's where people lose money (when calling a raise)." Its true. Though hidden sets against a preflop raiser are often your biggest moneymakers. Also... oftentimes its not headsup... when you hit, you have to figure in the number of times you'll have more then one person making a stab at the pot.

For instance... recently, I called a preflop raise 5xbb with 5 seeing the flop... flopped top set (with a little under a full stack)... there was a bet, a call, and a raise all before it got to me. By the end there was 3 allins and some other dead money in the pot... Final pot was about ~300BBs.

Huge wins like those balance out the times you call raises with PP and don't hit as well as the times you hit and might lose the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your case you had plenty of callers. That's an easy 10% call.

[Ghazban]

I mean that they call them when they don't have odds to make a set. The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 (or close to that, someone correct my math if I'm off) so, if you can get in 7.5 times as much as the original raise after the flop, you break even on the times you flop a set versus the times you don't.

Of course, this assumes a couple things that won't always be true. Namely, that 1) your opponent will pay you off and 2) your set will still be good by the river. These things won't always be true of course (for example, will AsKs really pay off your 4c4s set on a 6h5h4h board?) so its better to use a slightly larger factor in practice. In their book, Ciaffone and Rueben use the 5/10 rule for this, which is: If the preflop raise is less than 5% of your stack and you have a small pocket pair, always call. If its greater than 10% of your stack (or the stack of the PF raiser, whichever is smaller) , always fold. Between 5 and 10, use your best judgment.

The reason I say people call too much is because I've seen lots of people at the Party games (under the old 50xBB structure) call off 20% or more of their stack with a small pair hoping to flop a set. They can't make enough when they hit to cover the times they don't.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I say people call too much is because I've seen lots of people at the Party games (under the old 50xBB structure) call off 20% or more of their stack with a small pair hoping to flop a set. They can't make enough when they hit to cover the times they don't.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. And that's a point where the new structure makes the fish play much better.
But I actually don'tcare, if I am able to squeeze out additional ev on other occasions.
Should be attainable after adopting to the new game. But first we have to understand if/how the fish adjust.

[kurto]

" But first we have to understand if/how the fish adjust."

The fish won't adjust. Its the non-fish sitting at your table that you have to worry about.