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  #1  
Old 02-21-2003, 12:45 AM
Clarkmeister Clarkmeister is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

I just don't see the point for Milwaukee. Whats wrong with shipping everyone *else* out and using Allen as a key cog in that rebuilding. Its not like getting Payton, Campbell and possibly Spreewell will really matter.

I mean, anytime you can get a guy like Payton, it can't be bad. Heck, they guy is top 5 all time at his position (Magic, O, Zeke, Pasty). Hard to say getting him is a bad thing. And like you noted, Des Mason is a very nice catch. My guess is all these high priced guys they are brining in are going to be ejected at year end, along with Karl. Thus giving the new coach a clean slate and lots of cap room.

Plus, don't forget that the owner is trying to sell the team. That plays into this trade too.
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  #2  
Old 02-21-2003, 03:02 AM
ripdog ripdog is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

Payton and Karl get along well together. I don't follow basketball very closely, but I wouldn't take free tickets to a Sonics game right now--they suck. I was expecting Payton to be traded, but I was stunned that they let Mason go along with him. Losing both of them for Allen, an old guy, and another guy who's seen 9 teams in 6 years doesn't leave me feeling like Seattle got the best of it. My favorite Sonic player of all time is the coach now. Payton comes in a distant second. And why dump Kenny Anderson? I hope Payton can get himself a ring. Through the years here, he rarely whined and complained. Having to sit through Griffey, The Big Unit, and Shawn Kemp was painful. I wanted to see those three fall flat on their faces. Two out of three ain't bad...
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  #3  
Old 02-21-2003, 09:44 AM
marbles marbles is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

"Plus, don't forget that the owner is trying to sell the team. That plays into this trade too."

--This should be much more of a key point than a footnote. In Big Dog and Allen, they've unloaded a SIGNIFICANT amount of salary over the past several months.

My prediction: The Bucks play out this season, possibly making the playoffs, possibly not. They sign-and-trade Payton for one or two young, tough big guys (or possibly some nice draft picks). Now, the team is suddenly young, talented and cheap, with cap room to build for the future. Very, very attractive for a potential buyer.
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2003, 01:58 PM
IrishHand IrishHand is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

They can't really sign-and-trade Payton without taking on $10-15 million in salary in return (Payton's outgoing salary when he signs a new deal), which would defeat the point.
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  #5  
Old 02-23-2003, 07:49 PM
marbles marbles is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

They would take a cap hit, but it would still likely be smaller than the obligation they had to Allen (roughly $14M/yr IIRC). And of course, the cap hit would be totally worth it if they get quality young talent in return for him.

If ALL they were interested in was cap room, they would just let him go to free agency after playing 30 games for the Bucks. Can't imagine that would be worth it.
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  #6  
Old 02-24-2003, 09:04 AM
IrishHand IrishHand is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

I suspect their thinking is that Payton will get squeezed the way a lot of guys did last year with the luxury tax fears, and will settle for $8-10M per year. If so, they'll sign him for 5, if not, he'll walk and they'll tell everyone how happy they are with the Mason and cap space for cap-clogger, non-defender Allen.
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  #7  
Old 02-24-2003, 12:13 PM
marbles marbles is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

"if not, he'll walk and they'll tell everyone how happy they are with the Mason and cap space for cap-clogger, non-defender Allen."

--I'm sure this is the spin they'd try, but no one would buy it. If they don't get long-term talent value for payton, either in sign or trade, this is one of the worst trades in years. Mason and cap space are nice, but they could have fetched a lot more than that for Allen IMO.
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  #8  
Old 02-24-2003, 02:37 PM
IrishHand IrishHand is offline
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Default Re: Payton-Allen trade - who got the best of it?

I totally disagree. Here's one way to look at it from Milwaukee's position, assuming they let Payton walk:

Give up:
Ray Allen - max contract, marginal defense, didn't get along with Karl, team underachieved at least three years in a row under Allen's suspect "leadership" (I realize Karl takes some of the blame for this, but Karl did more with less in Seattle and at some point the players take a chunk of the rap). Really - he was paid top dollar and wasn't giving superstar production. If you go down the list of max contract guys you'd want to build a team around, he's not in my top 10 (O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Kidd, Webber, Nowitski, Pierce and Marion). Certainly, I'm not saying he's not a valuable player - I think Seattle comes out a better team after this deal for a number of reasons - but thus far, he hasn't demonstrated that he's the kind of player to lead his team to the promised land.
Conditional pick - as I understand it, this is either a crap 1st rounder or 2 2nd round picks in this year's draft. Probably not a huge factor, especially since I'm pretty sure that if the Bucks make the playoffs, it's two 2nd round picks.

Acquire:
Payton for the rest of the season - one-for-one, a clear improvement over Allen the rest of the way this year, dominant defender to go along with same level of offensive skills as Allen, with a straight-up Allen-for-Payton trade, I'd have moved the Bucks from the 6-8th place in the East to 3-4th.
About $10M per year against the cap and the balance sheet after this season (net of Allen plus Ollie minus Mason) - makes the team more attractive to potential buyers. It also affords them the possibility of being a player in the free agent market the following summer when a bunch of their veteran's contract's expire (I believe the only people under contract for 2004/5 are Thomas, D. Mason, Cassell, Gadzuric and Redd - a fine core).
Desmond Mason - a very valuable player, mostly 'cause he's still under the rookie wage scale for another year. Very good defender, insanely athletic - sort of a poor man's Shawn Marion. Also, an excellent fit with Karl, who loves athletic defenders and was sorely lacking them in Milwaukee.

Overall - Bucks much better this year. If Payton leaves, they've gained cap flexibility and a cheap, young player who's a far better defender than Allen, although not anywhere near the offensive force. However, Desmond was averaging 14 and 7 off the Sonics bench, so he could put up decent numbers in a starting role (16 and 8 seems reasonable). Of course, if the Bucks resign Payton for 4-5 years, then I think they come out of this deal smelling like roses.
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