Back to Basics : PF Raise Sizes

[Unarmed]

Ok,

I have a confession to make. I don't raise 3BB + 1BB for each limper. *GASP* No wait, let me explain, and please point out any errors in my thoughts here as I'm completely open to suggestions.

I'm not a big c-bettor. YMMV, but I honestly don't think c-betting is more profitable than checking whiffed flops and re-evaluating on the turn. Given this, getting HU with AK isn't something I find ultra-appealing. I prefer to get 2-3 callers, giving me odds to hit TPTK. An example:

I have AK on the BB. There are 2 MP limpers and the SB in the hand. It's level 1. Should I really pump this to 90? I think if I do so, I'll typically get 1 caller, and potentially be OOP in a raised pot which I will miss 2/3 of the time. In that "exact" situation, I'd probably make it 50. Is that awful? Should I jsut be pumping the best hand PF and hope I get nice implied odds against some donk when I hit?

Same situation. Give me AA/KK. I want action. I think I'd make it 60. Give me an UTG limper, and I'll make it 90. Ooops, now I'm varying my raises sizes by hand, which is supposed to be bad. I don't think anyone notices, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I'm sort of rambling, mostly because I don't have a system for sizing my raises PF. I evaluate the situation and decide on whatever raise amount I think suits the way I'm planning to play the hand. As I'm actually looking for advice here, I'm going to leave it at that and hope this post generates some interesting discussion.

Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Funny, I have been struggling with this very question regarding AK. Lately I have been pushing if there is any significant money in already to pick up or the blinds have gone up to make them tasty to pick up. So, say we are in Level 2 and there are 3 limpers and I am SB. I'll push and take the t135 most of the time. Occasionally a jackass will call with AQ or 78s or something and I'll usually double up. Is this a bad strategy?

When there's not enough to push, the big raise followed by c-bet has been working really well for me. If the flop missed me it most likely missed villain and they are afraid I have a high pair. I think it is very positive EV to play it this way.

Then again, I'm playing at $11s, so there you go.

[Chaostracize]

Check AK in the BB with multiple limpers in the first level

I disagree with you on the c-bet issue, especially with AK.

My philosophy on AK against good players (I think from your posts that this category includes the typical 109er.) is to play it like I have AA or KK unless I expect to go to a showdown. I actually keep wanting to write a comp program to mess around with this further, and I'll definitely post the results once I do.

Basically, the idea is that there are 24 combos of AA/KK and 16 combos of AK, and AK has either 6 or 3 outs against a 1-pair hand.

Given that you don't c-bet, I understand why you'd want to bet smaller.

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I disagree with you on the c-bet issue, especially with AK.

My philosophy on AK against good players (I think from your posts that this category includes the typical 109er.) is to play it like I have AA or KK unless I expect to go to a showdown. I actually keep wanting to write a comp program to mess around with this further, and I'll definitely post the results once I do.

Basically, the idea is that there are 24 combos of AA/KK and 16 combos of AK, and AK has either 6 or 3 outs against a 1-pair hand.

Given that you don't c-bet, I understand why you'd want to bet smaller.

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How do you play the turn when you c-bet (out of position) and get called?

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[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with you on the c-bet issue, especially with AK.

My philosophy on AK against good players (I think from your posts that this category includes the typical 109er.) is to play it like I have AA or KK unless I expect to go to a showdown. I actually keep wanting to write a comp program to mess around with this further, and I'll definitely post the results once I do.

Basically, the idea is that there are 24 combos of AA/KK and 16 combos of AK, and AK has either 6 or 3 outs against a 1-pair hand.

Given that you don't c-bet, I understand why you'd want to bet smaller.

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How do you play the turn when you c-bet (out of position) and get called?

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I think I always check unless I think I'm ahead. I have no idea if this is correct.

[durron597]

I don't see why you don't think c-bets are profitable. Say you have AQ in LP after MP1 limps, and you raise and the limper calls with 77. The flop comes K9xrb and he checks you bet half the pot. Suddenly the limper is in a tough spot where he doesn't know whether he is ahead or behind and to find out he pretty much has to commit most or all of his stack. If you get a fold from 77 this way one time in 3 you make money.

Now, as far as preflop raises go, the idea behind limiting the field is reverse implied odds. Say you have a bunch of limpers and you have AK in the BB. So you make a small raise and 2 limpers call. The flop comes K56. Pretty decent flop for AK, except for the times you gave 56 the right price to call you preflop and now he gets a decent chunk of your chips. By raising more preflop in general you can narrow the range of your opponents hands more and you can be more confident you didn't just get bottom two flopped on you.

At least that's the idea, you also make valid points about trying to extract more value out of your TPTK, but I would image at the the 109s you won't be stacking AT every time when you have AK on an Axx board. Plus those times are relatively rare because there are only 4 aces in the deck, and even when they do occur the guys who let themselves get stacked with TP4K are going to call bigger raises with AT anyway.

[Unarmed]

Durron,

I didn't say I *never* c-bet. I just don't automatically fire into 1 opponent when my AK/AQ whiffs. However, on a K high flop with AQ, I will c-bet nearly 100% of this time. Anyway, I don't want this to get into a c-bet discussion. I don't do it often, and it works quite well for me. I'm sure others c-bet with great success, its just not my style.

Your concern with giving speculative hands a chance to stack is valid. However, I don't think its a massive issue in SNGs given our downside is capped at the buy-in.

[The once and future king]

What is a c-bet?

Continuation bet. Ie, you raise preflop, with AK, don't hit, and bet anyway.