KK Question

SpiderMnkE · #1 08-04-2004, 10:46 AM

Ok... I have seen this happen quite a few times lately... sometimes twice a day... playing a couple tables at a time for hours on end.

I will see two guys get into a raising war pf... which results in an all-in pf by both players. I say to myself... AA vs KK... and sure enough... every time is has been.

Is there any point where you should realize your KK is against AA... or should you always go to the felt with KK.

It isn't just happening with little stacks either... I've seen some relatively deep stacks get crushed this way.

PokerFink · #2 08-04-2004, 11:05 AM

Hellmuth says that he has laid down KK preflop four times in his life, and he has always laid it down against AA.

For the rest of us, I think having KK vs AA is just a death warrant. Chalk it up to horrid luck and buy-in again.

EverettKings · #3 08-04-2004, 11:22 AM

Online, without some EXTREME read on your opponent, you'd have to pry KK out of my cold, dead hands preflop. The players are fishy enough that they could get into these wars with anything, often QQ, AK, JJ, etc. You have to be damn sure its AA to let it go, and online I doubt I will ever be THAT sure.

Raiser · #4 08-04-2004, 11:45 AM

I think you gotta be willing to get all your chips in pre-flop with KK in the online games. Of course my experience is with Party Poker which are some pretty bad games. I am constantly seeing JJ, QQ, AK, even any Ace get pushed all in before the flop.

In the games I play it is unlikely that you are up against AA and even when you are you have a 20% shot at cracking the Aces.

SayGN · #5 08-04-2004, 12:37 PM

Man I know what you mean....it's fairly rediculous how often i see AA vrs KK (but sshhhhh don't call shinanigans or the 2+2 people will rip you to shreds)...I have been on the losing end twice and the winning end once in the last month. I see it just about every day and I only play for about 2hrs/day..whenever someone has aces and another has kings at the same time, your poker provider wins. no better way to maximize the rake.

PokerFink · #6 08-04-2004, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
whenever someone has aces and another has kings at the same time, your poker provider wins. no better way to maximize the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that, my friends, is why I no longer play online poker for money.

JrJordan · #7 08-04-2004, 01:32 PM

If you have the initial 50xBB buy in, then there are very few times that you should fold your KK preflop in my experience. In a heads up situation, I have NEVER folded and have no doubt it is +EV. The only time I have folded is when an EP raised 4xBB from EP, I reraised to 12xBB in MP, CO reraised to 25xBB, and EP followed back with a push. I didn't have a read on EP at the time, but CO was a legitimate player that most likely had AA. Had EP not pushed on top, I'd still most likely call, but it would be very debateable.

Regarding deeper stacks, there is some point where you should be able to lose your KK. I'd still be willing to push with a 75xBB stack, but not much more. Around 100xBB, you really have to look at the player you're against. By the 4th reraise, he's either an idiot and overplaying his QQ, or most likely has AA. The problem is you may get pot committed before you realize this. 100xBB is probabaly around that point. Anything more than that, and you should be able to get out with KK before losing everything.

JohnG · #8 08-04-2004, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth says that he has laid down KK preflop four times in his life, and he has always laid it down against AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth talks crap. He laid down QQ twice in the wsop to lower pairs, so I find it hard to believe a guy that takes pride in big laydowns has never mistakenly laid down KK preflop. It's his ego talking.

Generally, KK is a hand you live or die by if it all goes in preflop. At lower levels because you are against bad players. At higher levels for psychological reasons. On very deep money, you do back off at some point and see the flop rather than get allin.

Truly good players do not make a habit of folding KK preflop.

SpiderMnkE · #9 08-04-2004, 02:02 PM

Hellmuth made those folds because he didn't want to coinflip. He knew he was good enough to succeed without them. He was also able to build his stack significantly despite those folds.

Hellmuth plays goot.

I believe he probably did make those folds correctly to aces.

JohnG · #10 08-04-2004, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth made those folds because he didn't want to coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he wasn't in a coinflip, so he read it very wrong. If he can read it wrong, then he can read being against aces wrong and mistakenly fold kings.

I mean, one of the pairs was 77 I think. If he can misread someone that bad, then someone could easily have JJ or AK when he reads them for aces. Big laydowns are his biggest fault, and if he does fold KK preflop as he claims, there is no question he has done so against a worse hand. People are always re-raising him preflop to get him to laydown. That's why you should not make a habit of making big laydowns.

He also claimed folding the QQ was right even against the lower pair he would have been against. Do you also believe him when he says this, or is there the slightest possibility his ego does a lot of his talking?