Hamas founder killed

[nicky g]

I agree with you that a bomb that killed ten innocent people should be regarded as more "provocative" than the assassination of a senior political/military/terrorist figure. But in practice it isn't, for the simple reason that figureheads are known and followed by thousands and ahve large scale followings, while ordinary people tend to be forgotten very quickly. If a nation's secret services planted a bomb in the US that killed a dozen people or asassinated George Bush, which do you think would be regarded as more "provocative"? If Hamas killed Sharon it would escalate the conflict far more than another bus bombing, and this will sadly escalate the conflict far more than the murder of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians by the IDF has. The entire world media has reported this as a significant escalation, not just Menzies Campbell.

I don't understand what you think this accomplishes. Will it prevent any more bombings? Do you think a 70- year-old paraplegic was intimately involved in the planning and carrying out of attacks or had anything useful to contribute to them? Yassin's rhetoric may have been deplorable but the bombers don't need his go-ahead to carry out attacks, as we'll no doubt see in the near future. Should other religious/political leaders that condone terrorist tactics be assassinated? What of the numerous right-wing rabbis in Israel who condone or even praise Baruch Goldstein's acts? What makes them any different from Yassin?

You joke about Sharon trembling in his boots at the thought of more suicide bombers, but Sharon ins't going to be affected by them, and it will be no laughing matter for the dozens that will no doubt die in the aftermath of this. You are kidding yourself if youbelieve that the number of attacks can't increase, or that this can't radicalise people further or recruit more bombers, or that this won't push back a negotiated settlement. Someone else will replace Yassin, a lot more people will die, and nothing will have been accomplished except Sharon getting a hard-on from directing another pointless killing.

[Gamblor]

It reminds me of British MP Jenny Tonge, who announced that if she were in "Palestine" she would have been a suicide bomber.

[Gamblor]

the murder of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians by the IDF has.

The word "murder" implies that the soldiers were given orders and their overall strategy is to kill Arabs. This, as we all know, is little more than a lie.

The entire world media has reported this as a significant escalation, not just Menzies Campbell.

The "entire world" also believed the earth was flat.

Will it prevent any more bombings?

In the long run, yes.

Do you think a 70- year-old paraplegic was intimately involved in the planning and carrying out of attacks or had anything useful to contribute to them?

Yassin has been confined to a wheelchair since he was 12 years old. He managed to stay healthily involved for the 60 years he was confined to it.

Should other religious/political leaders that condone terrorist tactics be assassinated?

Only if they begin to pay for the dynamite, counsel the terrorists, and organize groups of terrorists to carry out these acts, as Yassin did.

What of the numerous right-wing rabbis in Israel who condone or even praise Baruch Goldstein's acts? What makes them any different from Yassin?

Numerous? How many? 1? 2? And they didn't hand him the gun, as Yassin did. Nor do they actively recruit other Baruch Goldsteins to carry out further activities. Even the most right wing Rabbis now (and I'm thinking of Ovadia Yosef) are demanding peace in the spirit of Pikuach Nefesh (preservation of the soul), as no piece of land is worth human lives, Arab or Israeli.

[nicky g]

"Only if they begin to pay for the dynamite, counsel the terrorists, and organize groups of terrorists to carry out these acts, as Yassin did. "

Someone else will do exactly the same thing now Yassin is dead. And dozens of people will die. When are you going to get it through your head that if Israel hasn't managed to achieve a military solution to the problem of 50 years, despite overwheliming miltary superiority int he region, it never is?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
You're the dreamer if you think this will have no bearing.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you stated in another thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else will replace Yassin, a lot more people will die, and nothing will have been accomplished except Sharon getting a hard-on from directing another pointless killing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for making my case for me. Same old stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to end the violence is some kind of negotiated solution that drains away support for the terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok what sort? Outline the parameters and of such a solution that Hamas and Sharon will accept.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead this is going to double it, and there is zero chance of a drop in the violence in the forseeable future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep more people killed at a faster rate I really can't argue with that.

[ QUOTE ]
You will say that there never was such a chance but that repeated lulls and offers of ceasefires demonstrate that simply isn't true

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering that I haven't heard one bit of common ground between Hamas and the Israelis I think that your statement is wishful thinking. There isn't a shred of evidence to back it up.

[ QUOTE ]
you just demonstrate your ignorance of the situation by repeating such uninformed rhetoric.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rhetoric? What post are you referring to? Where's the common ground between Hamas and the Israeli's on which a settlement can be negotiated?

[Gamblor]

When are you going to get it through your head that if Israel hasn't managed to achieve a military solution to the problem of 50 years, despite overwheliming miltary superiority int he region, it never is?

That is a fair question I don't have an answer.

But that doesn't make the Israeli religious elite nor the Israeli army anything close, on a moral scale, to a single member of the Hamas, as you tried to assert via your questions.

[nicky g]

"Thanks for making my case for me. Same old stuff."

Bit early to be hitting the hard stuff isn't it. My first statement implies that this will increase Hamas activities and escalate the violence. My second implies that it will not hinder the violence. These are not quite incompatible.

"Considering that I haven't heard one bit a common ground between Hamas and the Israelis I think that your statement is wishful thinking. There isn't a shred of evidence to back it up."

Which goes to back up my uninformed charge, as Hamas repeatedly offered to implement a ceasefire in return for an end to the assassinations and incursions. There is zero chance of any such offer in the near future. Whether Hamas and Israel ahve any common ground for a long-term solution is more debatable, but Rantissi has repeatedly made it clear that an end to the occupation would see a shift to political rather than terrorist tactics. Furthermore an ened to teh occupation and Israeli atrocities would certainly see a huge drop in support for terrorist tactics.

Whatever guys. Keep on with the current tactics. They've done so well in bringing peace to the region.

[Cyrus]

I find the knee-jerk support by otherwise intelligent persons of everything and anything Israel does a bit surprising, even after many years of being witness to such behavior. There's a blind spot there, that inhibits critical judgement.

I'd bet that such people would find it equally defensible and proper if Israel had sent a Special Forces detachment to save Sheikh Yassin from assassination!

[ComedyLimp]

"So you are saying that the assassination is less "provocative" than the terrorist attacks?"

No. I imagine Campbell's comment means its difficult to imagine a more provocative act *by Israel*. Like all reasonable people Campbell comdemns and abhors the continued attacks by the likes of Hamas.

The question is do illegal assininations of Palestian leaders help Israel's cause. Most people in the UK of all political views think not -- becuase a) it Israel loses more from such acts in terms of international support than it gains from reducing the terrorist threat and b) for purely practical reasons you can't possibly hope to kill all the terrorists as each time you blow one up you make a fewhundred more.

"Just because someone went to school doesn't make him immune to bias"

No but it does make them not an "idiot" as was suggested about Campbell.

[nicky g]

That is not in general what I mant to imply; my post was about practicalities rather than morality. I don't believe such assassinations improve the situation for anyone. To say that not a single Israeli soldier can be as bad as a single Hamas member however is absurd. You can't seriously believe that every civilian death at the hands of the IDF in the territories has been some sort of tragic accident. Murder is murder, whoever does it.