Acting slowly on hands in tourney (re:MS Sunshine)

[Dolores]

Can someone explain something to me. Im obviously not understanding something here.

An angle shooter- is defined as "A poker player who uses various underhanded, unfair methods to take advantage of inexperienced opponents."

When we say 'unfair'- dont we mean against the rules?

If so- how is MS doing something 'against the rules'?

Furthermore- isnt "taking advantage of inexperienced opponents" the way that one maintains +EV in poker?

Are we talking about an individual- not living up to the 'spirit' of the rules- or of the game?

Is that everyone's outrage? Thanks in advance.

[Ryan_21]

Is it "unfair" that African children don't get enough food everyday? What rule say's that they should get food everyday? Unfair doesn't nessesarily mean against the rules.

You said:

"Furthermore- isnt "taking advantage of inexperienced opponents" the way that one maintains +EV in poker?"

NOOOOO

Taking advantage of inexperienced opponents MISTAKES, is how one gets a +EV in poker.

If a person has to do something besides take advantage of his opponents mistakes to get a +EV, then it is clearly wrong.

Hope this helps you understand better. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Ryan_21

[Dolores]

Ryan- thanks a lot for the constructive post.

Let me play devil's advocate here- to try to better flush out this argument.

And let me point out- in advance- since some arent as insightful as you are- that these arguments DONT neccessarily represent my position on this issue.

#1. "Is it "unfair" that African children don't get enough food everyday? What rule say's that they should get food everyday?"

I believe SOME would say- that its against the 'laws of nature'. That everyone has the natural right to live, thrive, and survive. (I think i heard that in a movie once [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]) These people obviously wouldnt subscribe to any Darwinian or scientific philosophy- but some may aspouse the argument- nonetheless. I think this is getting off topic though- and its NOT the part of your response- that id like to focus on.

#2. "Taking advantage of inexperienced opponents MISTAKES, is how one gets a +EV in poker. If a person has to do something besides take advantage of his opponents mistakes to get a +EV, then it is clearly wrong."

Ok- great clarification here. But is the line really as distinct- as you argue? In other words- lets say a relative newcomer attempts to raise- but fails to announce raise- and doesnt bring out the appropriate amount of chips.
Will you call a string raise on him- if you dont like your hand that much? Or allow the raise to stand if you like your hand? Is that an angle being shot? You are well within the rules to call a string raise. Why is it wrong?
Whats the difference?

Could one argue- that it would be an inexperienced tourney player's MISTAKE to not take full advantage of the 200s clock?

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On a side note- a perfect example- of shooting an angle- to me- is when a new player- says "deal me in" behind the button. The dealer deals the player cards- and the player- once receiving the cards- says- "i didnt want a hand".
Whether that player has looked at his cards- or not- he should be forced to post. Basically- if the house- doesnt force him to post- hes on a total freeroll. Thats shooting an angle to me.
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[Taxidriver]

What does EV+ means ? [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Dolores]

+EV

Is positive expectation- or at least how i generally abbreviate it.

[Mike Haven]

From the earlier-mentioned poker definitions site:

"EV : Expected value. Positive EV is sometimes written EV+, and negative EV, EV-."

The fact is that MS S is abusing the rule because it was not intended for strategy reasons. It was only to account for internet delays. As a response in RPG indicates, in one of the B&M tournements a player doing the same thing was put in a 15sec decision for abusing the system. I mentioned before of why online card rooms and on line players may collude even if they are making tons of money, "BECAUSE THEY CAN" (greed). This is not a blanket statement for all cardrooms or players just a general comment about human nature.

a) Is MS& Mr S cheating when both are playing ...no clue. but they CAN!!.

b) Is PP or any other cardroom cheating in very subtle ways to increase profits.. no clue.. but they CAN

c) Are good friends (or partners) sharing hand information over the internet or phone while playing on line even for the smallest of edges? no clue .. but they CAN...

d) Is any of us claiming and extra $100 of charitable donation that we didn't make of increasing the value of something we donated to minimize taxes...no clue (well probably yes) ..but we CAN...


e) fill in the blank.....

Thanks..

JAque

[Dolores]

"The fact is that MS S is abusing the rule because it was not intended for strategy reasons."

This statement is ABSOLUTELY false. It might not have been intended for the strategy reasons- hes using it for- but it ABSOLUTELY was meant- in part- for strategy reasons.

Not sure what the rest of your post has to do with the issue at hand- whether i agree with your sentiments or not.

Dolores, I defy you to sit at the final 2 or 3 tourney tables in a Pokerstars tournament, find that one player is delaying the maximum time (excluding time bank), and doing it systematically EVERY SINGLE HAND, to the extreme annoyance of other players, for 40 or 50 hands running, causing the disruption of the entire tourney for everyone, and requiring site management to intervene...and then you tell me that this is justplaying good sound poker startegy. Pretty tortured rationalizations if you ask me.

Why don't you put yourself in the position of the other players. Should we all now delay the max every single hand and completely destroy the flow of these tournaments because we have to counteract the "sound strategy" of a boorish jerk doing it at our opponent's table so he doesn't get a positive EV move on us?

Puhlease.

A guy that would selfishly misuse rules to the detriment of everyone else in a tournament, is a guy who would collude, and cheat with a spouse etc.