Why can't I beat low-limit fish?

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

I'm doing well overall, because I place well in the $109 and $215 SNGs and that makes up for the beats when there are no $109s or $215s filling up. But geez, I really need to learn how to beat the low-limit (looser) games, because in multi-table tourneys I run into a lot of those kinds of situations.

Two examples:

$33 SNG, and I'm in the BB with Q9o. Folded to SB, who min-raises, and I call. Flop is 7-2-Q, giving me top pair vs. a SB min-raise hand. He checks, I bet the pot, he calls. Turn is a 9. He checks, I bet the pot again, he calls. River is an Ace. He checks, I push, he calls and turns up A7o....

$55 SNG, final table, I'm the chip leader, on the button, with QTo. Min-raise from MP, one caller ahead of me, and I call. BB also calls. Flop is 3-8-T, giving me top pair. Min-raiser makes minimum bet, one caller, and I bet the pot. Min-raiser moves in, and I call. He turns up A8o, and catches another 8 at the turn to bust me down to the short-stack. Next hand I move in on AQ, called by AT, and he catches a T on the flop. I'm gone from chip leader to the rail in two hands.

Bad beats happen, I know. But it just seems as if, at the lower limits, where people are willing to call to the river with any slice of a hand, bad beats happen much, much more often. In the higher buy-ins, there are fewer chasers, and it's just plain easier to place consistently (to me).

I know there must be a problem in my game that causes me to do so poorly against the looser, lower-limit players. I am trying to find it. Any comments welcome.

Cris

[NotMitch]

Cris,

It seems like a little bit of bad luck but I don't agree with the river push on the first hand. He had called 2 pot sized bets which mean he likely has a piece of it and this would cause me to slow down here on the river. I think a lot of the time when you get called here you are beat. What were blinds and stack sizes for this hand?

[CrisBrown]

Hi NotMitch,

I agree that the push at the river in the first hand was a really dumb play on my part. As for blinds and stack sizes, I don't exactly recall, and PokerStars has been finicky about sending me hand histories today (anyone know what's up with that) so I'm not sure if I have the data yet.

Cris

[PrayingMantis]

Hey Cris,

First, I must say I play the 33$ on stars, and I really hope there were more fish in those, because there aren't enough... Sometimes it takes 4 levels for someone to bust. These are not low-limit fish, and I played *a lot* of lower-limit SNGs. So, maybe we play at different hours or something, but I think I have a pretty good picture of the games.

Hand 1: I don't like calling a raise with Q9o PF. It's a fish's hand. If your opponent raises you with trash, why not reraise him out? And I would push on the turn, not the river. Pushing on the river is not the best play, IMO.

Hand 2: Again, why call a raise PF with QTo, another fish's hand? And more important: why call a re-raise all-in on the flop, with TP marginal kicker?? Unless you have a very very strong read on this opponent, which you don't specify, and even then... it's very questionable.

All in all, I don't see these as examples for good plays against fish who suck-out on you. But I'm sure it did happen to you on some other occasions.

Please criticize,

PrayingMantis

[Ulysses]

Hand 1: Ignoring whether or not the pre-flop call was good, the main thing here is the push at the end. Not good.

Hand 2: Calling a raise pre-flop w/ QTo? Ugh. Calling an all-in reraise from the PFR w/ TP/OK-kicker? Ugh.

Sure, these guys caught up w/ you. But I don't think you played great poker in either hand. And that's likely the main reason you're not beating these games. It also makes me wonder whether you're really beating the bigger games or just running good. Who knows? Something to consider, though.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Ulysses,

I'll call a min-raise with any hand that I'd have limped or open-raised on. I consider a min-raise a big limp. I had a good read on the second hand, and got all his money in on a 5-outer. He hit it. Oh well.

The problem is, at the lower buy-ins, too many people will go all-in too often on any resemblance of a hand, so even if I'm ahead, I have to survive countless showdowns, and sooner or later, the short side of the odds catch up....

As for whether I'm beating the higher buy-ins, I'm placing in the money ~40% at $109 and $215, and that's where all of my profit ($1954 for February, $950 so far for March) comes from.

Cris

[CrisBrown]

Hi P.M.,

See my reply to Ulysses; I'll call a min-raise with any hand that I'd have limped or open-raised with. Unless I'm on a very big hand (e.g.: AK or a big pair), I'm not going to reraise a min-raise. But often enough I'll catch a good piece of the flop and can take down a little pot. Except at the lower buy-ins, where no one will fold at all, and I have to survive all five board cards. *shrugs*

I dunno. I guess I should just wait for big pairs....

Cris

[BradleyT]

I just watched you push all in with JTo on a jack high board with 2 callers. You could have easily been outkicked there especially since the SB was leading out each round.

I think you're too aggressive with bad kickers.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll call a min-raise with any hand that I'd have limped or open-raised on. I consider a min-raise a big limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's a problem then. First hand: You would have limped with Q9o out of position? Yuck. Second hand: You would call two limpers with QTo? Yuck again. Also, while a min-raise offers you more attractive odds to call, from most players it does *not* mean the same thing as a limp and treating it as such can easily get you into trouble. I would be more prone to call with small connectors (preferably suited) that I can flop 2-pair or better with or fold. Calling raises-even min-raises with classic trouble hands like QTo is just begging to be dominated (that sounds kind of kinky [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

[ QUOTE ]
As for whether I'm beating the higher buy-ins, I'm placing in the money ~40% at $109 and $215, and that's where all of my profit ($1954 for February, $950 so far for March) comes from.


[/ QUOTE ]

That means you have beaten them, not that you are beating them (i.e. two months of results could be luck pretty easily).

Maybe your style does work better against these players (who are at least tighter if nothing else), but the fallacy of "I need to play high limits because then people will respect my raises" has been shown time and time again. I think what Ulysses was saying is that you may well be on a run of short-term luck in these higher limits. Obviously neither of us can know what is true (or if it is some combination of factors), but at the very least, be careful.

Of course, in these $109/$215 games, I'd wager you aren't seeing a lot of min-raising, so if you have a big leak against min-raisers (and judging from the hands above, I would say you do), playing the higher limits might expose this less.

If you are really constantly getting your money in as a big favorite (as you would have been above if not for the river all-in on hand one which you have admitted was probably a bad idea), then you don't really have anything to worry about; if you can keep doing that, you are going to win long term; it's inevitable.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Bradley,

You may be right. Alas, I only get to play the cards I'm dealt, not the cards I wish I had.

Cris