Thin value raise on river

10/20 Hold'em.


This is the third hand I have played at the table, and it is my button. It is folded to the cutoff who limps. I limp with QsJs. The SB raises. This player had raised from the button in the last hand and played aggressively, but his hand was not shown down. The BB calls, as does the CO and myself. 4 players, 8 SBs.


Flop is AQ4r (none of my suit). The SB bets, BB calls, CO folds, and I call. 3 players, 11 SBs.


Turn in J, putting a two flush on board. SB bets, BB calls, I raise, and both call. 3 players, 8.5 BBs.


River is 2 (no flush possibilities). The SB checks and the BB bets. The BB is Asian around 30 yrs old whom I have never seen before. The button starts grumbling, making it clear that he thinks he has lost; I cannot tell whether or not he would make a crying overcall, though I strongly suspect that he will fold if I raise. Also, the BB bet very quickly when the 2 hit (for what that's worth). I think about it for a long time and eventually decide to raise.


Comments appreciated. I will post the results right now in a separate post.


-Dan

The button folded instantly and the BB called. Someone at the table said, "King ten obviously," and a couple of other players mumbled and nodded in agreement. I turned over my QJ and it was good. The BB did not show his hand.

Well I havent read your results so i am not gonna guess what people had, because if i guess right people will assume i am full of sh-t. Anyway, you should have raised perflop, the cutoff is indicating weakness by just limping, he made a lousy play preflop. When the small blind raises you need to concerned that he has some sort of value, people usually have significant strength when raising their blinds, even when the pot is short handed like this. Now when the BB calls that puts another potentially decent hand into the mix. You should fold here even though you are getting 11-1 and close the action. The Q is really the only card you wanna see as a J might not win it for you. Granted somebody may not have the Ace but even if they dont you could still be losing to a QK or be tied with a QJ. Both of these situations are no good. I think the order of this should go: fold- best, raise- maybe not terrible, call- bad idea.

Well the turn is better then nothing and now you have to go with it since you decided to call on the flop. I think raising is the good play.

Looks to me like raising the river is not such a good play, you wont get a better hand to fold i don't think, and you will just get called by a hand like aces up. I think you have a crying call on the river. Okay now i'll go and look at the results.

I think you meant the SB folded (you were the button). Anyway, whoever said "King Ten obviously" is a total idiot. BB would have reraised with the nuts on the turn and if he didn't then he for sure would have on the river. Well I'll guess that the SB had AK and doesn't know how to fold when its obvious he's beat.

Raise before the flop. Call on flop is ok because there is nobody behind you to raise. Turn is a bit dangerous becuase if the raise is legitimate the only hands you beat are AK and KK. And even AK has a decent amount of cards to catch you. I might just call here if I respect the raiser. River I think you make a big mistake. After showing so much strength on the turn, someone now bets into you again. Make a crying call. Besides the fact the better might have caught you, you make it impossible for the original raiser to payoff. Now you lose 3 bets instead of one if your beat. And if your hands good you only make 2. Unless the better makes a laydown on the river. Then you make no extra bets while risking 2 bb.

I'm sure whoever said "King ten" was referring to Daniel's hand, not the BB.


The raise on the river is too thin for me, as the only 2 pair hands he could have made that you can beat are 24 J2 and Q2 which seem unlikely hands for the BB to call a raise preflop with. I think more often you would find yourself looking at a A2 or 35, or get reraised and have to consider folding.

Coilean,


This was my thinking on the river. When the SB bet the turn and the BB called, my raise says one thing and one thing only: "strong made hand", because there is no reason for me to jam any sort of draw or anything there, since I'm not getting value or cheaper cards--and I'm not bluffing, becuase someone has already called. Therefore, when the most innocuous card in the deck falls on the river, an offsuit deuce, I must still think that my hand is good. Therefore, I will obviously bet the river when if it is checked to me. And I think that it should be pretty obvious to anyone at the mid-limits (remember, this was only my 3rd hand at the table) that I will bet the river. Therefore, if the BB truly had a very strong hand, a check-raise would make SO much more sense. Basically, I smelled something fishy when he bet the river because I couldn't figure any hand that made sense like that, so I was almost positive that I was ahead.


Despite the fact that the results worked out, that doesn't make my play correct of course. I do think that it is an interesting decision, though.


-Dan

Yes, you showed alot of strength on the turn. Thats why you should be more scared of this bet. No they will not necessarily go for a checkraise in this spot. If he made aces up on the river he might bet out instead of checkraising becuase he would be worried you had K10 and didn't want to get reraised but liked his hand enough to put a bet out becuase he wanted to make sure he got money in if his hand was good. And like you said it smelt fishy, more reason to just call. If he is completely bluffing you get no more money from anybody. But may gain and extra bet from the other opponent overcalling. And you save 1 or 2 big bets the times when you were beat and would have gotten raised.

"When the small blind raises you need to concerned that he has some sort of value, people usually have significant strength when raising their blinds, even when the pot is short handed like this. Now when the BB calls that puts another potentially decent hand into the mix. You should fold here even though you are getting 11-1 and close the action."


that's ridiculous. with 1 sb in already on the button with a good suited connector he has more than sufficient implied odds to see the flop (he is trying to hit a good draw). if he were out of position, didnt close the action, or the had QJo i think a fold would be okay, but a fold where he is with what he holds would be a definite mistake.


his call for one bet, closing the action on the flop to try and snag trips or two pair is also fine.


i agree that raising the river is a mistake. bb is way too likely to have aces up and no i havent read the results either.