Some things that depress me about poker – please respond

[RiverMel]

Perhaps it is partially a matter of the large number of amateurs playing in the tournaments and the mathematical probability of one or more advancing far in the tournament.

Bingo! This is at least a huge part of it.

[ResidentParanoid]

You seem to have construed the post as an attack on winning players, which it is not.

I probably misread your intent in this way.


Do you think so many people would buy into "poker" if they understood that 90% of players lose, that many of their heroes were broke, that the WPT is less a contest of poker's greatest than a glorified driving competition (to continue the golf metaphor)?

I guess my impression of the "heroes" is that they're a bunch of dumpy, slimy, las vegas acts. So I don't feel deceived. I haven't watched the broadcasts, so maybe I'm missing the deception.

It is true that the golf advertising/broadcasts come out of a longer, more "honorable" tradition. But the golf ads and announcers don't explain that it'll cost $X per year to make any improvements in your game, play on nice courses every week. They don't announce that even when you spend that much, most players won't break 100 for N years.

Even if the poker salesman clean up their act some (which I concede is probably necessary) the problem doesn't really go away.

[MCS]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
But the golf ads and announcers don't explain that it'll cost $X per year to make any improvements in your game, play on nice courses every week. They don't announce that even when you spend that much, most players won't break 100 for N years.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a lot more obvious in golf than in poker. Do you really think most people know that even the biggest tournament players are losers? I don't.

[lefty rosen]

I can't tell you how many stories about the top pro gamblers I have heard and read where they were unbeatable at one facet of gambling ie sports, or poker, BJ etc yet they were so addicted to gambling that they dumped their winnings at another form of gambling. Stu Unger is a classic case he could win 100,000 plus at a tournament and lose that same amount at the track. Jimmy the Greek nearly went bust early in his sports gambling career because of the horses, etc. It's my vow that if I ever can beat the high limit games online or live, I will never gamble at another facet of gambling that I am not an expert at.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Welcome to the real world.

Now let me clue you in on life in "straight job" world. It's the same thing. What, you think that all those guys who strut around the office aren't in hock up to their necks? There's a lot of fluff and flash in the 9-5 world ,too. And an awful lot of the schlumps there bust their butts for 40 years for a gold watch and a meager SS check. What's wrong with dreaming of glory, even if it *is* an artifice?

There's risk in every aspect of life. So poker marketers play up the glitz and the glory and play down the lows. Good for them. The same things that depress you make me smile. Poker is just another life-path available in a free society, and freedom ain't safe.

[sam h]

Kurn,

I've always liked your strategy posts and I appreciate your opinions in this thread, even if I completely disagree. Sorry if this is a somewhat harsh response.

“Welcome to the real world.”

I find this somewhat condescending but tellingly simplistic.

“Now let me clue you in on life in "straight job" world.”

See above. You figure I’ve never worked a job?

“You think that all those guys who strut around the office aren't in hock up to their necks?”

We have a negative national savings rate. Of course many people are swimming in a morass of credit card debt, bank loans, and student loans. But they’re not trumpeted by irresponsible journalists as being these loaded superstars of their profession.

“There's a lot of fluff and flash in the 9-5 world ,too. And an awful lot of the schlumps there bust their butts for 40 years for a gold watch and a meager SS check. What's wrong with dreaming of glory, even if it *is* an artifice?”

When there is a Middle Manager Magazine put out by upper management, books chronicling the World Series of Accounting that prominently feature the abacus, and lots of obsequious media too lazy or self-interested to tell the truth about these professions, maybe I will criticize them too.

There’s nothing wrong with dreaming of glory. But there is something wrong with soft media coverage of an industry that is fundamentally and intentionally misleading the public in numerous rather extensive ways. Most journalists see it as their mission to protect those people you derisively call “schlumps.”

“So poker marketers play up the glitz and the glory and play down the lows. Good for them. The same things that depress you make me smile.”

Yeah, it’s a Hard Knock Life and everybody’s just hustling, so good for them, you, Enron, and Martha Stewart too. Because only a sucker or somebody who didn’t understand the “real world” would give a sh** about such abstractions as responsible journalism and truth. Or about the “schlumps” for that matter.

“Poker is just another life-path available in a free society, and freedom ain't safe.”

No, freedom ain’t safe, though it’s a lot safer than despotism or totalitarianism. And part of the reason why is that free societies tend to have institutions dedicated to safeguarding the public interest, like the media, against powerful entities, like the gaming industry.

[bernie]

so all the ads that anyone can make money in the market or go to a programming school for 7 months and make 6 figures is all truthful advertising? how in 2 weeks you too, with no prior experience, can become a bartender and make upwards of $30-45 an hour. good luck even getting on anywhere with no experience.

it's not just the poker world. dont you also see ads of people winning drawings at casinos or other tourneys with big payouts? i do.

the golf analogy was also a good one. dont believe it? how about the huge money making industry on improvement gadgets for one's game. can anyone become a tourning pro? i dont know. if anyone played as much as the pros play they could have a shot at it. not everyone can be tiger woods, but he doesnt win every tournament he's in. many times some other no-name who will disappear the next week wins.

given the luck in tourney poker, i dont think you need to be a fantastic player to place in the money, nor win. not saying some great players havent won one, but it's possible. look at the latest final tables. recognize even 1/3 of the names of the guys on the table? i dont. who are they? where did they come from?

nothing wrong with dreaming or selling the anything is possible line.

b

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

No long reply here, Sam, just two points.

1) If the tone of my post came across as condescendinding towards you, that wasn't my intent.

2) It's interesting that in the wake of the more serious media scandals of late (NY Times-Jason Blair &amp; CNN-Uday Hussain) - that point to that fact that the media has become less an ombudsman than a group bent on manipulating the truth towards supporting a specific political agenda (Fox News excepted), you single out their coverage of poker to lambaste them.

If you ask me, the media made it *very* clear how tough it is to win at poker tournaments by the accurate depiction of the payout structure at the WSOP. That was a lot more "in the public interest" than CNN covering-up it's knowledge of Iraqi mass murder, and the NY times allowing fiction to be held out as fact in order to promote "diversity."

The media deserves scrutiny, I agree. But there's a whole lot of caveat emptor in the public's reaction to poker coverage.

[gilly]

I have enjoyed this thread very much and I agree with a lot of the things being said. But it is hard to feel bad for a losing poker player. It is not a secret that you are losing. If a guy sits down with $500 leaves with $200 he knows he lost. No one is being decieved. If they choose to lie to themselves about how they are doing in the "long run" it is hard for me to feel bad for them.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Agree 100%