$55 - uneasy ITM spot with AT - Page 2

WillMagic · #11 08-27-2005, 01:00 AM

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one of the worse arguments ever on the history of poker...only better hands will call..soooooooooo??????!!!!!!! the times u win 150 and u win a showdown overcompensate the times u lose a showdwon.

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First off, I did the ICM on this, and pushing is better than folding by less than 0.5% - so little that they didn't even make a recommendation. And secondly, even if it is the case that you win 150 by stealing the blinds enough to compensate for the lost showdowns...that doesn't make jamming better than raising to 3x and calling an all-in raise, WHICH WAS THE ARGUMENT OF MY ORIGINAL POST. IDIOT.

Will

Chaostracize · #12 08-27-2005, 01:01 AM

Except that you're wrong and ICM isn't God.

You'll get called by worse hands here. This is beyond an easy push.

bluefeet · #13 08-27-2005, 01:03 AM

yeah, some pretty muddled rambling there. i don't think your point MB was my intent.

i propose push.

he mentioned "not being desperate" (or something to that effect) regarding the not pushing arguement. i was trying to make the point that with a "standard" raise and a whiff, he was essentially looking at laying the hand down (minus a few hundred chips). with the blinds raking through after this one, he's basically pushing with less next orbit. i personally do not like raising. i could fold easier than raising. but i push [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

valenzuela · #14 08-27-2005, 01:05 AM

LOL..i was going to say the exact same thing..which 55 as an example as well.

45suited · #15 08-27-2005, 01:05 AM

I agree with Microbet and others. My default play is to just push here. Take away any inkling that the bigstack has to mess with me.

WillMagic · #16 08-27-2005, 01:10 AM

I got a little defensive in the last post because the other guy totally misrepresented my argument. Anyway.

So first off - your contention that you will be called by worse hands. Realize that you are pushing in 13 big blinds. Do you really expect to get called by A9 here? Or KQ?

And if they won't...then what worse hands are calling your push?

Will

Chaostracize · #17 08-27-2005, 01:13 AM

You're pushing 13 BBs against the big stack. 10 against the BB. If the BB had the same stack a 3x BB raise would suffice, and then fold to a reraise.

Raising 3x the BB and folding to a push from the big stack is playing too weak as any good big stack would raise with any two cards there. You need to exert maximum pressure here.

Anything other than a push here just seems ludicrous to me. And the times that a dominated A or KQ, KJ, and KT call here more than make up the times that you get called by those 5 big pairs and 3 dominating aces.

PS As a general rule, don't answer posts coming from someone using the word "u"

Isura · #18 08-27-2005, 01:20 AM

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i personally do not like raising. i could fold easier than raising. but i push

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I really think that folding is much worse than limping.

WillMagic · #19 08-27-2005, 01:21 AM

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Raising 3x the BB and folding to a push from the big stack is playing too weak as any good big stack would raise with any two cards there. You need to exert maximum pressure here.

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Stop right here. I advocate raising to 3x and CALLING a reraise all-in. I agree that raising to 3x just to fold to the big stack's all-in is garbage. My point is that we do BETTER when the big stack plays a range of hands that includes hands we beat (i.e. A9-A5, KQ-K9.)

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Anything other than a push here just seems ludicrous to me. And the times that a dominated A or KQ, KJ, and KT call here more than make up the times that you get called by those 5 big pairs and 3 dominating aces.

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Well, I disagree with you that KQ-KT will call an 13BB open-push, but then we are just disagreeing on assumptions and there's nothing really to be done about that.

Will

Chaostracize · #20 08-27-2005, 01:26 AM

I think raising and then calling an all-in is terrible. When someone reraises you, you are just beat too much of the time to make this call profitable. Pushing erases guessing games.

Depending on how you've been playing decideds whether or not these dominating hands will call you. I play an aggressive game so I see dubious calls like this all the time (including calls from Q and J high hands).

The times you will win this pot uncontested though is so high that folding here cannot be an option and you will just be blinded down waiting for a hand.