What does it mean to be a "pro?"

[drewjustdrew]

The rich guy with the good game is probably actually a tougher opponent depending on what you call a good game. A lot of pros pass on positive EV situations in an effort to reduce variance in their results. If they took more positive EV situations without fear of variance, your results should naturally suffer.

[Blarg]

Well, a doctor or lawyer who ruins his business won't be a pro for long, but will just be a professional on paper, just like a careless professional poker player. But at least most doctors and lawyers work for somebody else, a hospital or law firm. A poker player likely doesn't have anyone else helping to manage the office and keep it running while he's on cocaine binges -- he IS the office.

Being more directly(heck, entirely) responsible for money matters than the average professional is, proper money management for a poker player doesn't seem nearly as tangential and irrelevant in defining a pro. A pro is someone who not just can do something for a sustainable living, but actually DOES it. A poker player who is the biggest genius in the world at poker but can't make a living because of terrible money management skills, well, he's a poker player all right, but is he really a pro?

In one way, maybe, but not in the ways that matter. He's not treating poker as a business and not succeeding in that business. Once he is not treating it and cannot treat it as a business, he's no more a pro than anyone, even if he's 100x smarter and better at poker. He's just a really talented guy without a job.

A doctor or lawyer can't be professionals unless they can handle everything that's part of their job. You can't be "mostly" or "pretty much" a doctor or lawyer. A lawyer incapable of putting together an argument or researching case citations would never have been able to become a lawyer in the first place.

Yet anybody without a job can claim to be a pro poker player on the spot. Without being able to sustain a living at poker, that claim would seem silly, and sustaining a living is about more than just playing cards. A guy who just has skill with cards may be admirable, but he's only halfway there as a professional if he can't manage his money.

[Moyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Others have argued that the girl at Starbucks who gets your coffee or the dude that rings-up your groceries aren't normally considered "professional" coffee-getters or "professional" grocery-baggers just because they get paid to do it. And certainly, for some who have these occupations it is a sole-source of income and not just a part-time job.
I think it's a reasonable argument but am not sure exactly how much weight to give it.


[/ QUOTE ]

How many occupations actually use the phrase "professional"?

Professional engineer? Professional farmer? Professional dentist?

It seems to me that the word professional is usually used to describe an occupation that may otherwise be thought of as a hobby. Professional golfer, professional fisherman, professional skateboarder, professional bodybuilder, professional race car driver, etc.

If poker is your profession, then you are a professional poker player.

This is not baseball. There are no minor leagues. Some people think the big MTTs are the Majors so those players must be the only pros. Those people are wrong because that's not how poker works.

When I hear that someone is a professional poker player, I think that they must make a living from playing poker. It doesn't mean they're the best in the world. But it means they're good enough to make a living at whatever limit they're playing.

Obviously, you can still be very very good without making your living from poker.

[jakethebake]

Yea that didn't make any sense at all. There are a lot...and I mean a LOT of doctors, lawyers, and every other profession that are lousy at handling their money or just like doing stupid things when they're not practicing their chosen profession. It doesn't change the fact that it is their profession.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, a doctor or lawyer who ruins his business won't be a pro for long, but will just be a professional on paper, just like a careless professional poker player. But at least most doctors and lawyers work for somebody else, a hospital or law firm. A poker player likely doesn't have anyone else helping to manage the office and keep it running while he's on cocaine binges -- he IS the office.

Being more directly(heck, entirely) responsible for money matters than the average professional is, proper money management for a poker player doesn't seem nearly as tangential and irrelevant in defining a pro. A pro is someone who not just can do something for a sustainable living, but actually DOES it. A poker player who is the biggest genius in the world at poker but can't make a living because of terrible money management skills, well, he's a poker player all right, but is he really a pro?

In one way, maybe, but not in the ways that matter. He's not treating poker as a business and not succeeding in that business. Once he is not treating it and cannot treat it as a business, he's no more a pro than anyone, even if he's 100x smarter and better at poker. He's just a really talented guy without a job.

A doctor or lawyer can't be professionals unless they can handle everything that's part of their job. You can't be "mostly" or "pretty much" a doctor or lawyer. A lawyer incapable of putting together an argument or researching case citations would never have been able to become a lawyer in the first place.

Yet anybody without a job can claim to be a pro poker player on the spot. Without being able to sustain a living at poker, that claim would seem silly, and sustaining a living is about more than just playing cards. A guy who just has skill with cards may be admirable, but he's only halfway there as a professional if he can't manage his money.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well, I guess it really doesn't matter what you call him. If the toughest guy in the game is a non-pro who makes $5M a year from his "real" job, he's still the guy I don't want in the game. Even if he's just an amateur who's "hanging" with us pros.

later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Tommy Angelo]

I think of the difference between "professional poker player" and "non-professional poker player" as being the same as the difference between "agnostic" and "atheist." Whatever you call yourself, that's what you are.

[snakehead]

if it weren't for agnosticism, I wouldn't know what to believe.

[jakethebake]

Best answer so far.

[ QUOTE ]
I think of the difference between "professional poker player" and "non-professional poker player" as being the same as the difference between "agnostic" and "atheist." Whatever you call yourself, that's what you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jakethebake]

Call yourself whatever ya want. When I was in the Marine Corps I knew a guy that used to write in "paid killer for the govt." as his occupation on his taxes. I guess he figured that's one way not to get audited.

[ QUOTE ]
I think of the difference between "professional poker player" and "non-professional poker player" as being the same as the difference between "agnostic" and "atheist." Whatever you call yourself, that's what you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TomCollins]

Greg, you shouldn't speak so highly of yourself.