I have to call this, right?

ddubois · #1 08-24-2004, 04:31 PM

Pay t510 to win t1010? Desparate short-stack could be making this move with less than ace high before the big blind hits him and kills his fold equity forever, right?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t1330)
UTG (t710)
MP (t1755)
Button (t1120)
SB (t3085)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t710 (All-In), 3 folds, Hero calls t510,

Flop: (t1520) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1520) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1520) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1520
Main Pot: t1520 (t1520), between Hero and UTG. > Pot won by UTG (t1520).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ad 5h (two pair, aces and twos).
UTG shows 2d 2s (four of a kind, twos).
Outcome: UTG wins t1520. 

So now I'm short-stacked, and of course, two hands later, a different villan "has to call" because he's paying 320 to win 720. Oh, the irony:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t520)
SB (t1320)
BB (t1755)
UTG (t1620)
MP (t2785)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t520 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls t320,

Flop: (t1140) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1140) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1140) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1140
Main Pot: t1140 (t1140), between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB (t1140).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 8s Qh (one pair, eights).
Hero shows Kh Qd (high card, king).
Outcome: BB wins t1140.

unfrgvn · #2 08-24-2004, 05:04 PM

Maybe I've been playing too tight but there is no way I call the all in with A 5. Too easy to be dominated by either a better ace or a pair higher than 5's. He had about the best you could hope for other than pure garbage.

Edit: I went back and re-read the situation. I suppose he could by trying this with any two, but I would still fold.

Gramps · #3 08-24-2004, 05:36 PM

If you were on the bubble, and batting UTG for that 3rd spot, I think folding wouldn't be bad based on "meta factors" (if you have no reason to suspect he's been pushing total crap) - assuming you're likely behind, may be dominated/up against a pair higher than 5's, and if you lose UTG now has a 1710 to 620 edge on you and you're up sh-t creek, whereas if you fold you still have a chip edge on UTG and can still afford to pay a round of blinds comfortably if needed.

...but with 5 players left, and 4 battling for 2 spots, I think it's better to take a risk here and call UTG. If you lose, you still have enough chips to make a comeback - doubling up once (you may get a "pot odds call" from a BB with a semi-crappy hand that you're a good favorite against). If you call UTG and win, you have a little over 2k in chips and have separated from the pack a bit.

With 5 players left and no inside track on finishing in the money, I say make the call. UTG could be pushing a lot of non-pair/non-Ace hands here.

ddubois · #4 08-24-2004, 05:43 PM

Too easy to be dominated by either a better ace or a pair higher than 5's

I think you overestimate how easy it is to have those hands. Yes, he could have a dominating ace, or a dominating pair, but he could also have any king, any two cards higher 9 or higher, or worse aces.

With his stack size, number of players, position, what range of hands do you put him on?

If he's pushing top 40%, I'm a coinflip with a 2:1 overlay. If you think he's tigher, top 25% for instance, I'm a 1:1.4 dog. If you think he's top 15%, I'm a 1:2 dog, which means the play is even +/1chipEV (but I assume tournament -EV?), but it's awfully generous to give him that range of hands, isn't it?

durron597 · #5 08-24-2004, 05:55 PM

Hand 1) You played fine.
Hand 2) You played fine.

Where is the bad beat police when you need them?

Lori · #6 08-24-2004, 05:57 PM

Pay t510 to win t1010? Desparate short-stack could be making this move with less than ace high before the big blind hits him and kills his fold equity forever, right?

That's pretty much the size of it.

It's on the marginal side, but I call this 85% of the time (The other 15% reserved for a particuarly tight UTG player, or some other strange circumstances)

Lori

unfrgvn · #7 08-24-2004, 05:57 PM

I wasn't real comfortable with my original answer which is why I went back and edited. After doing the edit and before reading your new post I went to two dimes and played around with possible hands against your A 5 and saw that it was pretty hard to be more than a 2:1 dog against his most likely holdings. So mathmetically your call is likely to be correct and of course we know with what he held it was. I appreciate the poker lesson for today. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I told you I've been playing too tight! I think my answer may have been colored by the fact that I've lost a lot of these situations recently (A8s against KJ), etc. I going to make sure I'm weighing the odds correctly before hitting the fold button.

ddubois · #8 08-24-2004, 06:13 PM

Ok, good to hear. I wasn't sure whether it was really a good call, or if I had talked myself into beleviing it was a good call. I still do not yet have a good grasp of the correlation between chipEV and tournamentEV.

Lori · #9 08-24-2004, 06:20 PM

Quite simply, if you do not utterly cripple yourself, the chip EV is somewhere close to correct AND you can take a player out, you are doing no harm in calling.

Edit: This late on, a shot to knock someone out adds significantly to your Tourney EV. It might well be incorrect very early in the game.

Lori

ddubois · #10 08-24-2004, 08:35 PM

Ok, different tournament this time. These two push calls happened about 8 hands apart. The table was aggressive, with villan in hand 1 or villan in hand 2 pushing most preflops. How bad/good was it to risk my chip lead in a calling fashion? I think the first hand I have no choice, btu the second hand seems bad in retrospect - but that might be results-oriented thinking at work?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t1070)
Hero (t2700)
BB (t1230)
UTG (t660)
MP (t2340)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t660 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero raises to t2700 (All-In), 1 fold,

Flop: (t3660) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t3660) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3660) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t3660
Main Pot: t1620 (t1620), between Hero and UTG. > Pot won by UTG (t1620).
Pot 2: t2040 (t2040), returned to Hero.

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Ks 3s (three of a kind, kings).
Hero shows 7c 7h (two pair, kings and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins t2040. UTG wins t1620. 

As I said before, this villan had been very aggressive, pushing roughly 30% of hands:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP (t1070)
Hero (t1680)
SB (t120)
BB (t2790)
UTG (t2340)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to t1070 (All-In), Hero raises to t1680 (All-In), 1 fold,

Flop: (t3170) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t3170) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3170) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t3170
Main Pot: t480 (t480), between MP, Hero and SB. > Pot won by MP (t480).
Pot 2: t1960 (t1960), between MP and Hero. > Pot won by MP (t1960).
Pot 3: t610 (t610), won by Hero.
Pot 4: t120 (t120), returned to SB.

Results in white below: 
MP shows Ad Kc (two pair, aces and tens).
Hero shows 9d 9h (two pair, tens and nines).
SB shows Js 2c (one pair, tens).
Outcome: MP wins t2440. Hero wins t610. SB wins t120.