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#1
09-24-2003, 05:22 PM
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Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
Ray Zee offered this gem in a thread below: "They taught a gorilla how to play golf. He hit the ball 400 yards right down the middle. Tiger Woods was very worried until he saw him hit his putt 100 yards."
I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: Howard Lederer (considered by many to be the best limit hold'em player on earth), Tom Weideman (mid to high limit pro, Physics PhD, genius), Chris Ferguson (WSOP champ, game theory expert, the only strictly tournament pro Sklansky says would crush cash games), and Abdul Jalib (80-160 pro, computer science guy). What makes these guys wrong? 
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#2
09-24-2003, 05:29 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
hmm...are you sure Ray isn't just suggesting that Gorillas shouldn't golf?
I'm way too new to the game to have an opinion on the open limp/raise issue. But I will say I tend to favor open raising over open limping (but I do both depending on the game I'm in). jHE
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#3
09-24-2003, 07:47 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
I thinkt the open raise is good, if you have a hand good enough to call, you have a hand good enough to raise.
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#4
09-25-2003, 08:58 AM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
You are playing 0.5/1.00 at Party. 90% of pots are unraised with 8 seeing the flop. When a pot is raised upfront there are usually two MP/LP callers plus the BB comes too. You are dealt the following UTG: (a) 55 or (b) 87s. What is the optimal play? I doubt that it is either fold or raise.
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#6
09-24-2003, 05:45 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
[ QUOTE ]
Ray Zee offered this gem in a thread below: "They taught a gorilla how to play golf. He hit the ball 400 yards right down the middle. Tiger Woods was very worried until he saw him hit his putt 100 yards." I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: Howard Lederer (considered by many to be the best limit hold'em player on earth), Tom Weideman (mid to high limit pro, Physics PhD, genius), Chris Ferguson (WSOP champ, game theory expert, the only strictly tournament pro Sklansky says would crush cash games), and Abdul Jalib (80-160 pro, computer science guy). What makes these guys wrong? [/ QUOTE ] They are not wrong, none of them advocate the strategy you describe in your post.
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#7
09-25-2003, 12:03 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
They most certainly do advocate this strategy. You have not done your research. Go to Ultimate Bet and download Howard Lederer's seminar on limit hold'em. Note that the strategy I am referring to is to never limp in if you are first to act, or if no one has entered the pot voluntarily before you. It is not that they say you should raise every hand you play. Do a search on rgp or look in the archives here for more on this debate. Abdul and Sklansky and Malmuth have argued about it on both forums.
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#8
09-25-2003, 12:22 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
[ QUOTE ]
They most certainly do advocate this strategy. You have not done your research. Go to Ultimate Bet and download Howard Lederer's seminar on limit hold'em. Note that the strategy I am referring to is to never limp in if you are first to act, or if no one has entered the pot voluntarily before you. It is not that they say you should raise every hand you play. Do a search on rgp or look in the archives here for more on this debate. Abdul and Sklansky and Malmuth have argued about it on both forums. [/ QUOTE ] You have just changed your position. In your first post you had nothing about only UTG play or being forst to act at all. Simply admit you were wrong and are now trying to crawl out of the whole you dug even though you are still incorrect. Here is a chart from Abdul's site: Tight Game Opening Strategy Raise and call 2 QQ JJ TT KQs KTs JTs Raise and call 1 77 QJs KJs AQ AJ Limp-reraise / raise & call AKs AQs AK Limp & call 1 66 55 A9s A8s A7s KQ Limp-reraise AA KK 99 88 AJs ATs You will notice the limp/call hands with no regard as to position. And another chart by Abdul: Loose-Aggressive Game Opening Strategy Limp-call 2 / raise & reraise 99 88 Limp-reraise / raise & reraise AK AKs Raise & reraise AA KK Raise & call 2 A5s A4s A3s KQs AQ Raise & call 1 AJ KQ Limp & call 1 QJs JTs QTs 66 Limp & call 2 ATs A9s A8s A7s A6s KJs KTs 77 Limp-reraise QQ JJ TT AQs AJs Still has limping in as acceptable.
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#9
09-25-2003, 01:02 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
Although I disagree that all these players advocate never open-limping (and most of the commentary I have seen from Ferguson involves tournament strategy, which is different from ring game strategy) you are wrong to state this about mrwatson23:
[ QUOTE ] In your first post you had nothing about only UTG play or being forst to act at all. [/ QUOTE ] you mistakenly attempt to nitpick when he said this in his original post (emphasis added): [ QUOTE ] I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: [/ QUOTE ]
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#10
09-25-2003, 03:03 PM
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Re: Always open raise or fold, never open limp? Expert opinions
[ QUOTE ]
Although I disagree that all these players advocate never open-limping (and most of the commentary I have seen from Ferguson involves tournament strategy, which is different from ring game strategy) you are wrong to state this about mrwatson23: [ QUOTE ] In your first post you had nothing about only UTG play or being forst to act at all. [/ QUOTE ] you mistakenly attempt to nitpick when he said this in his original post (emphasis added): [ QUOTE ] I take this to mean that Ray doesn't agree with the open raise or fold, never open limp strategy. However here are a few players who do advocate this pre-flop strategy: [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] JR you would have done yourself a great service to have avoided this thread entirely. Since you opened your mouth and inserted your foot allow me to give it a little shove. In Bridge you open, in jacks or better draw you open, in beer drinking you open, even in 7Stud you open (more commomly called the "bring-in). In holdem you call, fold or raise the action is already open. Calling is also called limping, pretty straightforward. Any game with forced blinds is already open so nothing you do from the UTG position on can be called an open bet. Since his terminology meant nothing I could not read his mind as well as you. At any rate terminology aside the players he named do not advocate never limping whether first, 2nd, 3rd to act nor in any position for that matter.
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